by Christ Alone 494 Replies latest social current
Myelaine....why do you go on about the sins of the church but you wont cover or forgive the multitude of them?...you hold those sins against the the church and bring them up to suit your purpose...is that Christ like?
LOL Myelaine...THAT was funny...
you said: "Because you limit the full power of the Holy Spirit to a chosen few"...I would hardly call millions and millions of people who have entered into the unity of the Father and Son since the beginning of the church "a few".
Not the holy spirit, Michelle... but the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Truth that teaches.
were they, at any point, asked to enter into fellowship with Him? His disciples? or were they told that they wouldn't enter into the kingdom?...He sounded pretty firm on His ruling...the church, however, remembering that they were shown mercy by Jesus Christ may
disfellowship or ex-communicate a person but they also welcome back a repentant sinner...just like God has shown them to do.They were asked HOW they would enter the kingdom, if, they did not repent and come to Him. But He did not stop speaking to them, preaching to them, rebuking them. But they rejected Him. Because of it, the kingdom was taken from them and given to those who would produce its fruit. Yet they could still see Him again, if they but said 'blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord'. They were not judged at that time though... because the Son did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. Even Paul (one of your founding fathers) said that ALL Israel would be saved. That Israel had experienced a hardening until the full number of the gentiles came in, but that all israel would be saved. How do you skip past that one?
I kinda thought you would continue your "law of love" arguement...I've commented in other posts to you and others about what I believe about those who HAVEN'T heard the gospel.
Lets bring this a little closer to home, shall we?
Actually, i would just like you to answer the question that i asked, please. As well, I would like for you to comment upon the verses I posted, specifically this one:
Give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my (Christ's) brothers, and you will not lose your reward. (who is he talking to... all who belong to Him are his brothers and sisters... so who is it that will not lose his reward for doing good to his brothers and sisters?)Which makes me wonder...why do you go on about the sins of the church but you wont cover or forgive the multitude of them?...you hold those sins against the the church and bring them up to suit your purpose...is that Christ like?I 'go on' about the church, because that is what you follow, claiming that it speaks truth, and has been 'approved' from the start. I go on, because the actions of the church show it to be imperfect, and at times at ODDS with Christ. As do its teachings. Same as with the WTS. Same as with any other religion. So why follow it? Why trust that it knows what it is saying to you? Why not skip that middle man, and just go to Christ... who is THE mediator between man and God. There is nothing between people and Christ (except perhaps people themselves). You do not need to go to someone else in order to go to Christ, not once you have heard of him at least. I also cannot cover any sins. That makes no sense. Nor does speaking truth have anything to do with forgiveness or not. Your church does not answer to me, and it does not owe me an apology, nor does it need my forgiveness. It is an entity. I would forgiven any sin committed against me. And anything that someone asked forgiveness for. Because I would want to BE forgiven. The church (because i assume we are speaking of the catholic church, though you have not owned up to that) has offered apologies for things it has done in the past. Pointing out those things has nothing to do with forgiveness. Only that 'correct theology' if they had it, did not keep them from committing such crimes against others, and in the name of Christ. So again, 'correct theology' means what, without love?
...the theological and scholarly consensus was clarified in a written document for the benefit of those who were to teach and preach so that it would be known throughout the congregations that this wasn't just the opinion of a few people. this theology of God would form a sound foundation in which Jesus IS the cornerstone. With that many witnesses anyone can and should trust, put faith in and continue to build faith in the God expoused in that theology. that theology witnessed by the Holy Spirit held the hearts of men until recently, Tammy. With the advent of contrary cults and sects that came up with their own theology and subsequently caused men to follow other doctrines as well...mens hearts hardened and many no longer want to endure even sound theology...they would prefer to wander their own way...even when Jesus sends out shepherds to bring them back...
Michelle, the nicene creed came as a result of division, and there was a consensus reached by a vote, yes? Does that sound like the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit depend upon a vote?
How do you know that this is the truth, then? Why don't you show me the proof of the trinity (or at the very least, strong evidence... perhaps on another thread though)
let me ask you, has your lord done his job as far as shepherding you into a great flock of his sheep?Meaning?
if these ones belong to Christ, why are they resurrected to shame and everlasting contempt?
They would not... I do not know where you even get that from anything I wrote. Any who belong to Christ as his brothers are resurrected when He returns (the living and those who have died) at the same time. The first resurrection... and Paul corroborates this. But in the second resurrection, there are those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life... these are also given life. These are not his brothers/sisters... because they were already resurrected in the first resurrection.
Satan and his angels, and all whose names are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire... which is defined as the second death. One does not even have to guess at what it is. It is written right there. The lake of fire is death, and it is eternal.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth comes before then: the ones who are not part of the first resurrection, but who are instead turned away, not invited into the kingdom. They are in darkness; weeping and gnashing teeth... until after the thousand years that Christ reigns, and during Armageddon, when they march across the earth to come against the camp God loves, and are instead consumed by fire. Then you have the second resurrection, and the judging (and at this time, those who had died but are written in the lamb's book of life, are also invited into the kingdom.)
There is no place of eternal torment and torture. There IS an eternal death though.
And if you even stop to think about it, truly think about it... what person could possibly have any sort of peace, let alone happiness, if their children were confined to hell to suffer for all eternity. Better for there to be nothing for everyone, than that.
Peace,
tammy
How do you know that this is the truth, then? Why don't you show me the proof of the trinity (or at the very least, strong evidence... perhaps on another thread though)....tec
That's quite amusing tec...a believer asking another believer to provide "PROOF" LOL!
Like any of you can provide ANY PROOF of anything other than what the bible might say....ROFL!!!
Why don't you show us the PROOF its not a trinity...and while your at it, since you are keen of others providing PROOF of what they say...wheres your proof your god even exists let alone if he is a triune god or not. Cart before the horse I think....
Or strong evidence, Still. You left that part out, yes?
Peace,
tammy
Tammy ---- great discussion here --- Tammy, question --- those who have the law of love on their hearts but not considered Christ's bros/sisters are resurrected regardless of whether they were followers of his. I understand w/their hearts of love they're compelled to give to the poor and love others, etc., but they're exempt of other qualifications --- duh/sorry but I guess w/their hearts of love that covers everything and they're born in agreement/acceptance for everylasting life.
What a contrast to those "professed" xtians (not judging here) who do evil acts to others yet feel they're saved/churchers, etc., yet they really are forgiven because they believe/accept Christ. Goes back to judging and left to Christ.
dear Tammy...
yes, all israel will be saved...all israel does not equal all jews. israel is comprised of those who believe in God, they are called the israel of God.
certainly every one of those pharisees had the opportunity to repent and be accepted into the kingdom...but it doesn't appear that they did. because Jesus made the stipulation that they must repent and believe in Him but they didn't they are not part of the community of believers anymore...they are ex-communicated and cut off. matthew 3:10...do you know how people are ex-communicated?...they aren't barred from entering into a church building and hearing the message. That is always open to everyone. It is the communion that they are asked not to partake of...they are still ministered too by the leaders and congregation while they or obliged to examine themselves. If one is seditious he may be removed from the fellowship to protect the rest of the congregation. interestingly the pharisees didn't barr Jesus from their midst but presented Him as being seditious towards the state.
you said: "Give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my (Christ's) brothers, and you will not lose your reward. (who is he talking to... all who belong to Him are his brothers and sisters... so who is it that will not lose his reward for doing good to his brothers and sisters?)"
...onlythosewhodo this will get their reward...On this very forum, many an unbeliever would rebuke faster than give concessions.
you said: " I 'go on' about the church, because that is what you follow, claiming that it speaks truth, and has been 'approved' from the start. I go on, because the actions of the church show it to be imperfect, and at times at ODDS with Christ. As do its teachings"
...Jesus Christ founded the church as a body of believers...I don't kid myself that everyone who has participated in the communion has been a footstep follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ and neither do I condemn the entire community made up of millions and millions of people throughout these generations as you seem to do. Tammy even the churches listed in the book of revelation had their faults but they were the churches of Jesus Christ. would you list some teachings that are adhered to across the board, by the church, that are at odds with what Jesus Christ taught.
...I don't "follow" the church...I participate in communion and fellowship with others in the church...and the life in the church building can change drasticly. A new pastor can come in and lose his congregation if they see that he doesn't preach truth according to the witness of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the individual and also in accordance with the revealed scripture) This happens in small congregations and in entire denominations...the united church is an example of this schisim. These schisims wouldn't happen if people were following "the church". the reformation wouldn't happen if people were following the church. the Holy Spirit bears witness to the people that the theology of the church is true and sound...not every doctrine. That is, there are many houses and if one house gives more significance to a particular doctrine and another house doesn't, that in no way means that the doctrine is wrong or lack of emphasis on that doctrine is wrong...it just means they are varied like the churches listed in revelation...but these churches all adhere to the essential DOGMA, teaching or theology about WHO Jesus Christ is. ie: God the Son...the fullnessoftheGodhead bodily.
you said: "Michelle, the nicene creed came as a result of division, and there was a consensus reached by a vote, yes? Does that sound like the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit depend upon a vote?"...
...the meeting was called to bring together the canon and the nicene creed came as a result of the need to thoroughly clarify what the church taught...the dissenters were given opportunity to present their opinions regarding the accepted teaching of the One God as a unity of trinity, and the notion was counter debated by them. The vote was to prove that there was agreement...not to decide which side would win the arguement. if that was the case there would be no vote because, clearly, the Holy Spirit had already brought many more people to witness to the unity of the trinity than those who came to oppose it.
you asked: "How do you know that this is the truth, then?"...the Holy Spirit witnesses to God the Son and that He is the fullness of the Godhead bodily...He can not deny Himself.
you said: "They would not... I do not know where you even get that from anything I wrote. Any who belong to Christ as his brothers are resurrected when He returns (the living and those who have died) at the same time. The first resurrection... and Paul corroborates this. But in the second resurrection, there are those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life... these are also given life. These are not his brothers/sisters... because they were already resurrected in the first resurrection."
...lazarus was resurrected and died again...being a believer his second death had no power over him. rev.20:6...he was assured of the kingdom. in daniel there are those who will be resurrected (having already died without a final destination)...they will be given opportunity to choose their final destination...some to everlasting life in chooseing Jesus Christ and some to everlasting shame and contempt(how can their shame and contempt be everlasting if they cease to exist?)...their second death shows finality too. either they are held by the power of God to salvation or they are held by the power of satan. Thats why it is also mentions that there is opportunity to witness and those who do will be able to turn some of these resurrected ones to righteousness (Jesus Christ)daniel 12:2-3.
you said: "Satan and his angels, and all whose names are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire... which is defined as the second death. One does not even have to guess at what it is. It is written right there. The lake of fire is death, and it is eternal."
...the resurection of Jesus Christ takes the "sting" out of death only for those who believe in Him.
you said: "And if you even stop to think about it, truly think about it... what person could possibly have any sort of peace, let alone happiness, if their children were confined to hell to suffer for all eternity. Better for there to be nothing for everyone, than that. "
...the scriptures say that God will wipe every tear from "their" eyes and for them there will be no more mourning...what God of peace and love would cause us to keep memories of loved ones who weren't with Him in the kingdom?...the whole truth of what Jesus and the apostles say about helll gives blood bought believers all the more reason to preach with tears in our eyes to those who are UNSAVED...THIS is like the righteousness of noah, Tammy.
love michelle
Or strong evidence, Still. You left that part out, yes?
No! LOL...I really wish you'd stop answering for me with non questions that end in yes...LOL how about just asking the quesion without the 'YES' attached. Oh, but that way you are really making a statement instead of pretending to ask a question. If you only wanted 'strong evidence' that's all you would have asked for...Yes? You asked for proof, Yes? You cannot even provide proof (or strong evidence) for your god. Double standards at play...yes? Cart before the horse, yes? What's the point in trying to prove or disprove the trinity theory about a god that you cannot even prove exists in the first place. You are trying to 'prove' a theory about a theory of which there is no evidence or proof. Yes? ROFL
Been sick...just woke up and read a (very) little. I don't know, but I had some really, really wild dreams about gold bars, the next president and all about Jesus' wife. Her name was Maryanne, they took a 3 hour tour of the Red Sea. And, they shipwrecked. Luckily...Jesus (who can walk on water...towed them home) the professor, the millionaires, the captain, Gilligan, and the movie star were all saved.
It just all seemed SO real. I hope everyone believes in me, but I doubt they will...I'm just not famous or have enough charisma.
But, remember this -- I'll have to kill everyone --- who doesn't believe in my dream -- one of these centuries...
* SO IT IS WRITTEN, SO IT SHALL COME TO BE ! *
Oh, but that way you are really making a statement instead of pretending to ask a question.
I was making a statement, yes. (no question mark this time, lol)
If you only wanted 'strong evidence' that's all you would have asked for...Yes? You asked for proof, Yes?I asked for either.
You cannot even provide proof (or strong evidence) for your god. Double standards at play...yes? Cart before the horse, yes?That is not an issue between Michelle and I, so no double standards; no cart before the horse. God is a given for Michelle and I, and since it was a conversation between Michelle and I... there is no issue. Peace, tammy
Tammy ---- great discussion here --- Tammy, question --- those who have the law of love on their hearts but not considered Christ's bros/sisters are resurrected regardless of whether they were followers of his. I understand w/their hearts of love they're compelled to give to the poor and love others, etc., but they're exempt of other qualifications --- duh/sorry but I guess w/their hearts of love that covers everything and they're born in agreement/acceptance for everylasting life.
What a contrast to those "professed" xtians (not judging here) who do evil acts to others yet feel they're saved/churchers, etc., yet they really are forgiven because they believe/accept Christ. Goes back to judging and left to Christ.
I'm not sure about everything. But Christ did make those statements about those who did good to even the least of his brothers; and the sheep entering the kingdom did NOT know Him, but did all the things that He asked of us. So they do have the law (which is of love) written on their hearts.
He made promises and he does not break His word... and as you said, WE, do not get to judge who belongs to Him and who does not.
Neither Christ nor his father are as exacting as many religions make them out to be.
Peace,
tammy
