I Want Proof Jesus Even Existed

by Farkel 199 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Pistoff

  I am giving up on this thread, mP. You want everyone here to disprove your theory, that the Romans invented Jesus.

  I am not interested in it.

  As I said, I don't consider myself a christian, so I don't have a dog in this fight. It doesn't matter to me if the Romans invented Jesus, but i consider that as likely as the moon being made of blue cheese.

  From mP:

  " At no stage does he mention anything that relates to Jesus earthly life. No Jersualem, Bethlehem, Mary, virgin birth, Joseph, 12 apostles, Galilee, miracle, incident in the temple, ressurrection etc nothing. The only thing Paul ever repeats, is Jesus was our saviour and thats about it. He does mention James the brother of the Lord and Cephas i think in Gal and thats it. This has been covered and was ,mentioned by Leo in a previous thread here. No one else managed to show anything more definitive.

  THis of course leads to a simple question is Paul really talking about "OUR" Jesus.

  If you try and reconstruct what Jesus did and taught from just Pauls writings you nothing. Of course if you wish to correct me, please do. I will state however that xians perhaps including yourself simply assume that Paul knew Jesus. Examien the proofs from the Bible and you might be surprised you find a completely different picture."

  That has been my point through this thread; Paul does NOT talk about Paul's life, he builds a MYTH about him being the Messiah and being raised up. The followers of Jesus build on this with the myths of the Gospels. You talk about others not reading your threads; you obviously haven't read mine, as that is a real point with me: Paul never met Jesus, and does not talk about his teachings or sayings. He is only interested in Jesus as a risen messiah.

  Why would the Romans invent Jesus? They have their OWN myths.

  BTW, the information about Crossan comes from your favorite source, Wikipedia.

  Crossan also says this about the Romans:

  "...he points out, early in the book, that "(t)here was a human being in the first century who was called 'Divine,' 'Son of God,' 'God,' and 'God from God,' whose titles were 'Lord,' 'Redeemer,' 'Liberator,' and 'Saviour of the World.'" "(M)ost Christians probably think that those titles were originally created and uniquely applied to Christ. But before Jesus ever existed, all those terms belonged to Caesar Augustus." [ 9 ] Crossan cites the adoption of them by the early Christians to apply to Jesus as denying them of Caesar the Augustus. "They were taking the identity of the Roman emperor and giving it to a Jewish peasant. Either that was a peculiar joke and a very low lampoon, or it was what the Romans called majestas and we call high treason."

  The Romans had their own heroes; why would they invent one for the Jews? Where is the evidence?

  YOUR theory, that the Romans invented Jesus, is outside the mainstream of all peer-reviewed scholars. YOU prove the theory, don't ask us to disprove it.

  mP:

  " Jesus said a lot of things, but he never said anything against the Romans. He did however say many things numerous times that would be a benefit to them. He encouraged peace, cooperation, tax payment, obedience and more. He never said a single thing that would be a problem for the Romans. If all the jews listened to Jesus, Rome would have no problems in Judea. They would be good little tax payers waiting for a kingdom that would never come.

  The jews back then refused to eat with gentiles. They were trying to accomplish the eequivalent of the apartheid system in South Africa. One can see that this environment mixed with religious and violent fanaticism was very unhealthy for the peace of Judea. Read your history and you will find the Jews were like this in many other places throughout the empire. Wiki has numerous articles to get you statrted."

  That is an inflammatory and flagrantly false statement. You are accusing the Jews of persecuting aliens in their midst, exploiting a whole class of people? This statement alone is ample proof of your being utterly unqualified to discuss this issue.

  Jesus, as presented by the gospels, was a potential threat to both the Jewish and Roman power structure; Jesus and his followers paid no attention to class. The ancient world, especially Rome, was all about class and patronage of those the wealthy felt worthy.

  And the Romans were aware of messianic hopes among the Jews; when they heard of one who was considered such, they killed him.
• 

  mP

  Pistoff:

  The Romans had their own heroes; why would they invent one for the Jews?

  mP:

  You have shown complete ignorance of the Jewish rebellious problem of jesus time. The Jews were in violent revolt during that time. History shows there were many violent Messiahs attempting to lead many Jews against the Romans not only in Judea but around the empire. The Romans realised that the religion was a motivating factor. The priests were at the forefront of this, as can be seen by examining the leaders and events that sparked each of the big jewish - roman wars.

  I have given much evidence you just have not read it. At no stage have you refuted a single item i have presented. If i am wrong in any assertion then address an individual point and correct it.

  Rome didnt invent Jesus to be a hero. No where does the BIble claim Jesus is a hero. They invented him to give a peaceful messiah so the jewish simple masses would stop looking for a messiah to rebel and free them of the romans.

  Pistoff:

  Where is the evidence?

  mP:

  I have given many examples, you have failed to show ANY of them to be false, or even correct any of them. Its hard to have a conversation with someone who is blind when many examples and more.

  Pistoff:

  YOUR theory, that the Romans invented Jesus, is outside the mainstream of all peer-reviewed scholars. YOU prove the theory, don't ask us to disprove it.

  mP: I have raised many interesting questions, which you flat out ignore. Nobody can prove Jesus existed, there is simply no real text. We can however think about selfish motivations. Practically all religions are about manipulation. In all societies religion is closely linked with the ruling class.

  Its sad that you cant try and examine a few simple facts for yourself and let "scholars" think for you. Its not hard to look for yourself if your mildly interested. I have shown by looking at Bart Ehrmans latest book which is all about proving Jesus existed that he is hardly honest in his approach and omissions. Judge for yourself by watching the video from his own words.
• 

  mP

  Pistoff:

  Crossan cites the adoption of them by the early Christians to apply to Jesus as denying them of Caesar the Augustus. "They were taking the identity of the Roman emperor and giving it to a Jewish peasant. Either that was a peculiar joke and a very low lampoon, or it was what the Romans called majestas and we call high treason."

  mP:

  You missed the point entirely. You seem to think there is an absolute or single god in the roman world. There were zillions. To invent another to decieve the locals was common practice.

  Take a look at separis. Examine the history and you will see another example of the elite attempting to use religion to manipulate the masses for their own advantage.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

  Serapis (Σ?ραπις) or Sarapis (Σ?ραπις) is a Graeco-Egyptian god . Serapis was devised during the 3rd century BC on the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria. Serapis continued to increase in popularity during the Roman period, often replacing Osiris as the consort of Isis in non-Egyptian temples. The destruction of the Serapeum by a mob led by the Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria in 389 is one of the key events in the downfall of ancient paganism, and the cult ceased to exist with the abolition of paganism in 391.
• 

  mP

  mp->Pistoff:

  The rapture was invented to make money like most other devices of the church. The Roman Catholic Church used to make huge sums of money by selling indulgences to those who wished to sin and could pay for it. The idea of rapture was necessary to make the peoples want to pay for thei sins. There was no innocent misunderstanding, its simply greed and money.

  Your undertanding of xianity dogma is innocent, the simple answer is always money and its not hard if one examines the history of where things actually originated the truth is rather obvious.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgences

  In Catholic theology , an indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment [1] due for sins which have already been forgiven

  ...

  The Council of Epaon in 517 witnesses to the rise of the practice of replacing severe canonical penances with something new and milder. It became customary to commute penances to less demanding works, such as prayers, alms, fasts and even the payment of fixed sums of money depending on the various kinds of offences (tariff penances).

  After a while rich people paid nuns and monks to pray for their sins, hence the business angle of the church. Have you ever aked yousrelf where the church got all that money for all those grand cathedrals ? Well the answer is from extorting money for indulgencies and similar devices. This is the "protest" that Martin Luther was protesting about when he started protestanism. That what protestantism is protesting about.
• 

  mP

  Pistoff"

  That is an inflammatory and flagrantly false statement. You are accusing the Jews of persecuting aliens in their midst, exploiting a whole class of people? This statement alone is ample proof of your being utterly unqualified to discuss this issue.

  mP:
  The bible itself tells us they refused to eat, drink etc with gentiles. We are talking about a very different time, where people did strange cruel, things in a very different world to our own. DO yourself a favour and spend a few minutes reading about the jewish / roman wars. The Romans were cruel masters, the jews were weak racists who didnt realise their position inthe world and tried too many times to defeat an empire beyond their powers.
• 

  mP

  Pistoff:

  Jesus, as presented by the gospels, was a potential threat to both the Jewish and Roman power structure; Jesus and his followers paid no attention to class. The ancient world, especially Rome, was all about class and patronage of those the wealthy felt worthy.

  mP:

  Jesus very much paid attention to class, he told his followers to obey Rome. This statement is utter nonsense. Jesus told the poor to pay tax and obey. He told slaves to obey their masters. The story of Joseph going to Bethelem to pay tax fruther highlughts that no matter waht a good jew pays tax even if his wife is about to give birth. Jesus was hardly a revolutionary, he never championed any cause of the poor. You cannot show a single statement where Jesus is against the Roman system. Rather he teaches to take your place and obey in submission.

  Pistoff:

  And the Romans were aware of messianic hopes among the Jews; when they heard of one who was considered such, they killed him.

  mp: They killed all the messiahs including Jesus. To say they killed him seems to imply he was the only one, which is down right incorrect. The reason Jesus died is because he claimed to be the king of the jews. This is the only question that Herod asks. Its all about authority. Once Jesus message had been given in the story he had to die. Then afterwards the gospels blame the jews, when everybody knows the ROmans were in authority. TO blame the jews such as the text in John is absolutely absurd.
• 

  mP

  PISTOFF:

  The jews in the Kitos War killed 200K+ gentils in Libya(Cyrenaica) which can only be described as genocide based on racial motivations.Its easy to find more. You dont have to agree with the Roman point of view but whats important is they believed it and they then decided to punish the Jews for their actions.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War

  The 4th century Christian historian Paulus Orosius records that the violence so depopulated the province of Cyrenaica that new colonies had to be established by Hadrian:

  "The Jews ... waged war on the inhabitants throughout Libya in the most savage fashion, and to such an extent was the country wasted that, its cultivators having been slain, its land would have remained utterly depopulated, had not the Emperor Hadrian gathered settlers from other places and sent them thither, for the inhabitants had been wiped out." [2]

  Dio Cassius states of Jewish insurrectionaries:

  "'Meanwhile the Jews in the region of Cyrene had put one Andreas at their head and were destroying both the Romans and the Greeks. They would cook their flesh, make belts for themselves of their entrails, anoint themselves with their blood, and wear their skins for clothing. Many they sawed in two, from the head downwards. Others they would give to wild beasts and force still others to fight as gladiators. In all, consequently, two hundred and twenty thousand perished. In Egypt, also, they performed many similar deeds, and in Cyprus under the leadership of Artemio. There, likewise, two hundred and forty thousand perished. For this reason no Jew may set foot in that land, but even if one of them is driven upon the island by force of the wind, he is put to death. Various persons took part in subduing these Jews, one being Lusius, who was sent by Trajan." [3]
• 

  mP

  Pistoff:

  The followers of Jesus build on this with the myths of the Gospels. You talk about others not reading your threads; you obviously haven't read mine, as that is a real point with me: Paul never met Jesus, and does not talk about his teachings or sayings. He is only interested in Jesus as a risen messiah.

  ,mp:

  You missed my point, that Jesus followers never knew Paul. The connection was manufactured at a later stage along with many other xian beliefs about the first century.
• 

  mP

  Pistoff:

  BTW, the information about Crossan comes from your favorite source, Wikipedia.

  mP;

  This is stupid and inflamatory. I use wiki because its available to all and is a good start. It also helps show how ignorant people are on many topics, especially xianity. THey believe one thing about jesus and first century xianity when simple research is quite revealling and different.
• 

  mP

  Pistoff:

  BTW, the information about Crossan comes from your favorite source, Wikipedia.

  mP;

  This is stupid and inflamatory. I use wiki because its available to all and is a good start. It also helps show how ignorant people are on many topics, especially xianity. THey believe one thing about jesus and first century xianity when simple research is quite revealling and different.