Was Jesus Christ A Schizophrenic, With Who's my Father Issues?

by frankiespeakin 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  King Solomon

  I dare say Jesus was not in an unusual situation: he was a bright Jewish boy who looked to please his parents, and was raised in a culture where young Jewish males wanted to please their Moms by growing up to be not just a Jewish doctor or successful lawyer (as today), but to be a Jewish messiah, if not THE Messiah. It sounds like an environment actually encouraging the formation of Messiah complexes (plus a massive persecution complex, which certainly real persecution can do!). The entire Jewish community knew of the significance of the messianic hope, and it certainly must've given him some celebrity within the downtrodden community.

  He didn't fulfill many of the prophetic criteria, and some rejected him rightly due to not meeting the well-known qualifications laid out in the OT. There were many other wanna-be Jewish messiahs, but none completed the prophecies (eg rebuilding the 3rd temple in Jerusalem).

  Here's the explanation of why Jews rejected Jesus in his day, and are still awaiting the messiah.

  http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/
• 

  Leolaia

  www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS7l9XvFy_E
• 

  Cold Steel

  He didn't fulfill many of the prophetic criteria, and some rejected him rightly due to not meeting the well-known qualifications laid out in the OT. There were many other wanna-be Jewish messiahs, but none completed the prophecies (eg rebuilding the 3rd temple in Jerusalem).

  I wouldn’t turn to the Jews for arguments against their Messiah, because it was prophesied that they would reject him. Jesus condemned many of them because of their disbelief. And after generations of apostasy, they had forgotten many of their traditions. I pointed to animal sacrifice and how it was done in the similitude of the Son of God. There was also the brazen serpent that Moses placed upon a staff or a cross (Numbers 21). Jesus did many miracles that the Jews of the time witnessed and rejected, fulfilling the law of witnesses. There is also Isaiah 53, which I quoted in its entirety (above). The Jewish response to that on the website you referenced maintains that the subject is not the Messiah, but “directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people.” The prophecies are written in the singular form, it continues, “because the Jews (Israel) are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.”

  Actually, looking at the verses in Chapter 52 that defines the subject of Isaiah 53, we read:

  Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward.

  Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marredmore than any man, and his formmore than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

  In the battle of Armageddon, the nations round about Jerusalem will make was with Israel. For the first time in recorded history, the Lord, the Messiah, will personally intervene to deliver the holy city (see Zech. 12-14, Isa. 11, Psalm 85). During the Roman occupation, Jesus warned, the Jews were to flee, and that if they had forgotten their robes, they were not to not go back to retrieve them. And woe to those who would be with child in those days. In Isaiah 52, they are not to go out in haste, nor by flight.

  As for the singular pronoun, these Isaiah 52 verses are feminine (“go ye out from the midst of her!”). But when the Lord speaks of “my servant,” it’s clearly masculine. “His visage was so marred more than any man.” Jesus, in the garden, suffered more than any man in history, taking upon himself the sins of the world. Also “his form” more than the sons of men. This servant is clearly a real man, not a nation. The Jews have pushed that sorry interpretation for generations in their rejection of their Messiah.

  It also states that “Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.” Yes, possibly, but by then the great apostasy was in full swing and the leadership of the church had been transferred from God to man. Not until the time of the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3) would the leadership return to God. Besides, are they noting the irony or saying it represents a self-fulfilling prophecy?

  The scriptures are full of prophecies referring to Christ. And because some prophecies, such as the building of the third Jewish temple, have not been fulfilled doesn’t mean they won’t be. Ezekiel 38-39 have yet to be filled, but they will be when the Lord returns. The Jews who say some prophecies have not been fulfilled are not taking into account that the final chapter has not been written. The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t understand the prophecies relating to Armageddon in the first place, so they fail to note that all scriptures referring to Armageddon point not to the JWs, but to the Jews and Jerusalem. (See Zech. 12, 14; Rev. 11)

  In Revelation 11:1-2, John writes: “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” I don't know how JWs can liken this scripture to themselves when it is obviously referring to the third temple. The events, John adds, takes place “in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”
  
  Sorry, GB, but that’s not referring to Brooklyn!

  ---------------

  Psalm 83:3-4

  [The enemies of Israel] have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation -- that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

  Sound Familiar?
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Cold,

  So you you are basing your beleif that Jesus was not delusional on some interpitation of bible verses that are yet future? That is very iffy to say the least.

  I suppose then you realize that is the same thing the Governing Body are doing to further thier delusion of divine appointment to God's spokesman to the world, and is also the same trap that this jesus person fell into in to further his delusion of being God's son.

  And the same type of delusional thinking that every one that thinks he's the Messiah is doing. Not a very trustworthy practice, but it is all the delusional thinkers can do to keep the delusion alive, a form of self deception.

  Time to wake up and smell the coffee. They are all suffering from a common form of delusion, the Messianic delusion, that seems to be a world wide among the human species.
• 

  King Solomon

  Cold Steel said:

  I wouldn’t turn to the Jews for arguments against their Messiah, because it was prophesied that they would reject him. Jesus condemned many of them because of their disbelief.

  D o you listen to what you're saying? Think about it for a minute:

  - You say Jews MUST reject a Messiah claimant to fulfill that specific prophecy (which is NOT found in the original OT scripture: that's a Xian apolegetist interpretation used to justify Jesus' failure to fulfill other specific prophecies).

  Here's the claimants:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianic_claimants

  I'll play along here, for the sake of argument:

  If the Jews must reject "the messiah", then how can he lead Jews to assume the Earthly throne and usher in the Messianic Age, and fulfill all the other prophecies? Some prophecy must fail.

  I t must've been a good call for Jews to reject all those claimants (including Jesus), since, last time I checked, the Temple hasn't been rebuilt in Jerusalem, etc. No Jewish Messiah yet!

  And let's assume for a minute that Jesus accepted the same twisted interpretations of Isaiah used by Xians to justify why the "true messiah" was rejected: why would Jesus be surprised by their rejection, or bother to condemn the Jewish rejecters to Hades? He'd KNOW they were simply doing their part in fulfilling prophecy, thus carrying out God's Will! His condemnation indicates he WASN'T the true messiah, as he'd instead point to their rejection as PROOF, as fulfillment of prophecy, and he'd manage to overcome their objections to assume the throne.

  Flip-side is, if Jews actually accepted a given Messiah, they are NOT fulfilling Xian prophecy: hence that Messiah claimant cannot point to that particular fulfilled prophecy (if you accept the interpretation).

  The Xian apologetic prophecy fails as being logically inconsistent, no matter how you cut it. They've created a catch-22, an irresolvable paradoxical interpretation.
• 

  King Solomon

  Leo, that young lady is slightly disturbing to watch, but hardly uncommon: I see someone who's trying to resolve the contradictory characteristics of God as depicted in the Bible, and is conflicted by being trapped in a situation that is not of their own making, but one she accepts by accepting 1000's of years of tradition as proof. It is amazing to see the mental gymnastics people will engage in, to come to terms with all of it. Some people believe it so much they assume a role in the story, personalizing it, and are actually encouraged to engage in a personal relationship with God and Christ. THAT'S what results when people do.

  I imagine you can relate (from what I remember of your teenaged attempts to refute evolution, etc), before you dug into the historical roots of the Bible to reach the conclusions you did.
• 

  Leolaia

  I dunno. I never thought I was Eve or Mary Magdalene. I've watched her videos...she claims she learned she was the Messiah from artificial intelligence.... by chatting with http://cleverbot.com/; that was her spiritual awakening. She believes she was abducted by aliens and wonders if they put a chip in her brain.....she thinks we are living in a holographic reality and admits that she is a Reptilian and felt ashamed by that fact but is coming to terms with it....
• 

  frankiespeakin

  It is interesting that the gospel accounts show that some thought Jesus had a demon, which would be the way people back then thought mental illness was caused by.

  Even his family thought he was going off the deep end in his behavior.
• 

  King Solomon

  She thinks she's a reptile? Wow, I only watched a bit of the video, and must've missed THAT part!

  Really though, I was trying to suggest that she's seemingly spent a bit of time studying scriptures in order to come up with her cockamaimie stuff, and some people have brain circuitry that apparently makes it harder for them to separate their fantasies from reality. That must be horrible, not being able to discriminate amongst ones ideas/beliefs (and isn't that what childhood is, a time when we still believe in boogeymen and fairy tales as we are able to suspend our disbelief)? It's sad that religion seemingly only encourages blurring that line, and has done so for quite sometime (at least, ever since a relationship with a personal God was democratized and given to the masses, and taken from the exclusive domain of the Pharoahs).
• 

  Cold Steel

  Yeah, I’ve heard of those other messiahs, and what do they prove? Only that Jesus was right when he said that many false prophets and messiahs would arise to deceive the people. The other messiahs lacked the one thing that Jesus provided, and that’s witnesses. Moses had many witnesses in his day—witnesses who beheld the parting of the Red Sea, the miracles of manna, of providing water, the thundering on the top of Sinai, and seventy elders of Israel (plus Joshua and a few others) who saw God while they supped upon the holy mountain.

  Jesus also had many witnesses—witnesses who beheld his healings, his raising of the dead and his resurrection from the dead. In fact, after his resurrection, he appeared to his disciples for 40 days and taught them the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. (See Acts 1)

  Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Jesus and many others prophesied that the Jews would be dispersed to the four corners of the Earth. They also prophesied that God would bring Judah back to its ancestral homeland. Isaiah, for example, wrote that “the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Chapter 11) The first time the Lord recovered his people was after the Babylonian captivity. The second time was after the Romans dispersed the people. It was fulfilled in 1947 with the Balfour Declaration.

  And Zechariah wrote: “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

  … The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. … And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. (See Zechariah 12)

  Here is a prophecy regarding Armageddon, which is in the valley of Megiddon. The enemies of the latter day Jews (“all the people round about”) will eventually attack Jerusalem as they did in 1948. This also is the first time in history where Israel’s enemies are the nations or peoples “round about”—the Muslim nations. The Lord, however, will support Israel and will “seek to destroy all the nations” that come against it.

  But, when the Jews look upon their Messiah, they will see the wounds in his hands and feet and will know instantly who he is. Zechariah writes: “And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.” The prophet then says that a time of intense mourning will grip the land as the Jews realize that their great Messiah is none other than Jesus Christ, who was lifted up for their transgressions. They will mourn as one mourns for “his only son” (a messianic reference) and in bitterness for “his firstborn” (another messianic reference).

  Isaiah 53 so clearly describes the life and death of Jesus, and of course the “second coming” of Christ is an event that is still future. To complain that all the prophecies have not been fulfilled is a non sequitur. Amos declared that “surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” (3:7) This means all significant events, both ancient and modern, will be made known to the Lord’s servants. Those other would be messiahs offer us what? Nothing. None of them has left more of a smudge on the pages of human history.