What did Jesus really mean when he spoke on the mount of olives?

by apocalypse 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    What do you consider examples of "the interpretive traditions presupposed elsewhere in the NT"?

    The Olivet discourse is to a great extent a midrash on Daniel. This apocalyptic source gives a specific end-time scenario, originally drawing on the historical situation of the persecution of Jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, that is intelligible: there is war and a great persecution, the Temple is desolated when the Gentiles install the abomination of desolation on the altar, but this lasts only for a limited duration (3 1/2 years), then the desolator himself comes to a gory end, and his kingdom given to the people he had persecuted. The Hebrew apocalypse, which itself draws on the Aramaic vision in ch. 7, describes the end of the "fourth kingdom", originally applied to Greece (ch. 8) but by the first century AD was generally understood as applying to Rome (this is stated explicitly in 4 Ezra, that the prophet Daniel had a different understanding of the identity of the fourth kingdom). The blasphemous king who desolates the Temple meets his demise when court is held in heaven and "one like a son of man" judges the kingdoms, strips away their authority, and replaces dominion with the kingdom of the holy ones of the people (Daniel also mentions the resurrection of the dead to judgment occurring after the defeat of the blasphemous king). Jewish and early Christian apocalyptic sources interpreted this as pertaining to the demise of Rome. This is how Daniel is interpreted in the Man from the Sea and the Eagle visions in 4 Ezra. 1QM (the War Scroll) draws on Daniel in developing a scenario of the final war that destroys the Kittim (the Romans) and the forces of Belial forever. The book of Revelation draws on Daniel in constructing its own end-times scenario: the "little horn" in Daniel corresponds to the "Beast" who persecutes the chosen of God, making war on them, but then Christ joined with the holy ones kill the Beast, and then replace the Beast's dominion with their kingdom, the resurrection of the dead occurs, and Jerusalem is restored (as New Jerusalem). Ch. 17 of Revelation makes it absolutely clear that the Beast is the king of Rome (Babylon), and the theme of the Beast coming back to life after being killed draws on the popular Nero redivivus urban legend of the day. (I know some preterists argue that Babylon actually corresponds to Jerusalem here, but that again is not an adequate explanation of the text) The Olivet discourse develops the Danielic scenario in a similar way. Again, the fourth kingdom corresponds to Rome, and it wages war and persecutes the faithful. The statement about the great tribulation being the worst since the creation of the world is a reference to Daniel, identifying this crisis with the one mentioned by the prophet. In an explicit reference to Daniel, the discourse then mentions the Gentiles installing the abomination of desolation where it should not be. If we follow the plot of Daniel, this situation should then last only a temporary duration of time. Then the "Son of Man" figure would come, the persecution would come to an end, those in power who persecuted the faithful would be stripped of power and judged, and the kingdom of God would replace their dominion. And that is in fact what we find....what happens next is that the Son of Man comes with the angels, the peoples of the earth are gathered for judgement, both living and dead, and they are judged for their deeds, with the wicked being dispatched to Gehenna while the righteous receive eternal life and the kingdom. This draws too on the development of the Son of Man figure in the Book of Parables (in 1 Enoch) which develops the judgment scene in ch. 7 of Daniel as one that has universal scope, referring to the judgment of everyone on Judgment Day on account of their deeds. So if we are guided by the scenario from Daniel that the gospels interpret as pertaining to the crisis of AD 66-70, there should have been a universal judgment, a demise to the Roman empire, and the resurrection of the dead shortly after AD 70. Full preterism does not rest on an adequate exegetical understanding of the Olivet discourse as an interpretation of Daniel, or give full credit to the universal features of the eschatology (easing them into a sort of spiritualized or realized eschatology).

    Some relevant parallels:

    Daniel: "Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others....In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever" (2:40-44), "Thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat... The court was seated and the books were opened...And there was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven, he was given authority, glory and sovereign power....The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it...He [the little horn] will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time...But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever ( the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire) . Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him" (7:9-13, 23-27), "He [the little horn] set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down....He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power" (8:11, 25), "In the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering, and in the sanctuary he will set up an abomination that causes desolation until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (9:27), "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the sancutary fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation...The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place...He will come to his end, and no one will help him....At that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever" (11:33-45, 12:1-3).

    1 Enoch: "On that day my Chosen One will sit on the throne of glory and he will make a selection by their deeds" (45:3), "There I saw one who had a Head of Days, and his head was like white wool. And with him was another, whose face was like the appearance of a man .... And this Son of Man who you have seen, he will raise the kings and the mighty from their couches, and the strong from their thrones. He will loosen the reigns of the strong, and he will crush the teeth of the sinners. He will overturn the kings from their thrones and from their kingdoms" (46:1-5), "In those days I saw the Head of Days as he took his seat on the throne of his glory, and the books of the living were opened in his presence" (47:3), "In those days the earth will give back what has been entrusted to it, and Sheol will give back what it has received, and destruction will give back what it owes. And in those days my Chosen One will arise and choose the righteous and holy from among them for the day on which they will be saved has drawn near. And the Chosen One in those days will sit upon my throne" (51:1-5), "In those days the angels will assemble themselves and ... stir up the kings and a spirit of agitation will come upon them ... they will go up and trample the land of my chosen ones, and the land of my chosen ones will be before them like a threshing floor....They will make war on themselves and their right hand will be strong against themselves ... until the number of their corpses will not be enough due to their slaughter" (56:1-7), "There will stand up on that day all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who possess the land. And they will see and recognize that he sits on the throne of his glory, and righteousness is judged in his presence. And pain will come upon them as a woman in labor....pain will seize them when they see that Son of Man sitting on the throne of his glory....And the righteous and the chosen will be saved on that day....and the righteous and chosen have put on the garment of glory and this will be your garment, the garment of life form the Lord of Spirits, and your garments will not war out, and your glory will not fade....In those days the kings who possess the land will implore the angels of his punishment, 'The Lord is faithful in all his deeds and his judgment and his justice and his judgments have no respect for persons ... Our souls are full of ill-gotten wealth but it does not prevent us from descending into the flame of the torment of Sheol'. And after that their faces will be filled with darkness and shame in the presence of that Son of Man, and from his presence they will be driven" (62:3-5, 13-15, 63:1-11), "And they had great joy and they were blessed and glorified and exalted, because the name of the Son of Man had been revealed to them, and he sat on the throne of his glory, and the whole judgment was given to the Son of Man, and he will make sinners vanish and perish from the face of the earth, and those who led astray the world will be bound in chains" (69:26-28).

    Matthew: "I tell you that everyone will have to give account on Judgment Day for every empty word they have spoken...The men of Nineveh will stand up (i.e. in the resurrection) at the judgment with this generation and condemn it" (12:36, 41), "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father " (13:41-43), "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (16:27-28), "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (19:28), "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains....Then [immediately after the distress of those days] will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" (24:30-31), "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats....Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'...Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (25:31-32, 41, 46).

    All three have universal scope for the judgment that occurs with the coming of the Son of Man.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    THE OLIVET DISCOURSE- A Collation of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21

    TWO DISTINCT JUDGMENTS: The Destruction of the Temple and the Second Coming

    The Temple's Fate

    1 And as He went forth out of the temple, one of His disciples says to Him, “Master, behold, what manner of goodly stones and what manner of buildings and offerings!”
    2 And Jesus said to him, Do you see these great buildings? the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.

    Beginning of Troubles Leading to Jerusalem's Destruction:
    3 And as He sat on the mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
    4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished, and of your coming (parousia) and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Take heed that no man lead you astray.”
    5 “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ/I am He’, and ‘the time is at hand’, and will lead many astray.”
    6 “And when you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled/terrified, it is necessary for these things to come about first; but the end is not yet/immediately.”

    7 Then said He to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,”
    8 “And there will be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But all these things are the beginning of birth pains.”

    9 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you, and will persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake, for a testimony to them. Then will they deliver you up to tribulation, and will kill you.” 10 “But you will be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends, and some of you will they cause to be put to death. And then will many stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake”
    11
    “And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake.”
    12
    “And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you will say, but whatever will be given you in that hour, that speak, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.”
    13
    “Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries will not be able to withstand or to gainsay.”
    14
    “And many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray, and because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of the many will wax cold.”
    15
    “But not a hair of your head will perish. 16 In your patient endurance you will win your souls for he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.” 17 “A nd this gospel of the kingly rule will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then will the end come.”
    The Sign to Flee Jerusalem's Destruction:
    18 “When therefore you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not in the holy place (let him who reads understand), that is to say, when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.”
    19
    “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let him who is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house, and let him who is in the field (countryside) not return back to take his cloak.”
    20 “For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
    21 “But woe to those who are with child and to those who are breast feeding in those days!”
    22 And pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a Sabbath,”
    23 “For then will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, no, nor ever shall be, for there will be great distress on the land, and wrath to this people.”
    No Second Coming (Parousia) During Jerusalem's Woes:
    24 Then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ’, or, ‘Here’; believe it not. For there will arise false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if it were possible, even the elect. But take heed. Behold, I have told you beforehand.”
    25 “If therefore they shall say to you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness’, go not forth, ‘Behold, he is in the inner chambers’, believe it not.”
    26 “For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.”
    The Onslaught on Jerusalem's and its' Aftermath:
    27 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and on the earth there will be distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows, men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,”
    28“And then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
    29 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved, but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”
    30 “Wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”
    31 “And He will send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
    32 “But when these things begin to come about, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
    33 “Now from the fig tree learn her parable. When her branch is now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near, even so you also, when you see all these things, know you that He is near ( the Kingly Rule of God is near), even at the doors.”
    34 “Truly I say to you, This generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished.”
    35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”
    The Future Second Coming (Parousia) and its' Distinctiveness:
    (Worldwide Event, Normal Times, No Signs Given, Timing impossible to Anticipate, No Running Necessary, Saints Taken)
    36 “But of that day and hour knows no one, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” 37 “And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming (parousia) of the Son of man.”
    38 “For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away. So shall be the coming (parousia) of the Son of man.”
    39 “Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare, for so will it come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.”
    40 “But watch you at every season, making supplication, that you may prevail to escape all these things that will come about, and to stand before the Son of man.”
    41 “It is as when a man, sojourning in another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, to each one his work, commanded also the porter to watch.”
    42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know when the lord of the house is coming, whether at eventide, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say to you I say to all, Watch.”

    43 “Then will two men be in the field, one is taken, and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one is taken, and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken through.
    44 “Therefore you also be ready, for in an hour that you do not think the Son of man is coming.”
  • Satanus
    Satanus

    It was writen around 30 yrs after it was supposedly given. How accurate do you think it is?

    S

  • apocalypse
    apocalypse

    Vanderhoven7 : You have a good effort there. However, under the "onslaught" of Jerusalem, you have the sign of the second coming. It's all out of context. Jesus didn't come on the clouds in 70. And there was no event where it went completely dark, sun,moon and stars, in 70.

    But good effort. You realized there has to be a separation.

    You could try to read the link I put up. Or perhaps your post satisfes you.

  • apocalypse
    apocalypse

    Satanus. Do you have any faith at all? If you have given up, then give up somewhere's else.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Nice evasion. If jesus wants to see me, he knows where he can find me.

    S

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Guess, you don't REALLY want objectivity.

    S

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Anyways, i'm outa here.

    S

  • John Kesler
    John Kesler

    Leolaia, thank you for your detailed reply. Understanding the original identity of Daniel's fourth beast as Greece and knowing that Babylon is code for Rome in the NT are keys to proper understanding.

    Londo111, it's true that ge can simply mean land, but in other instances, it has a broader application. Context is the key. Back up two verses to Luke 21:33, or look at Luke 5:24 as examples.

  • apocalypse
    apocalypse

    I have come to see that most want to express an opinion about this topic without facing the questions generated by their expressions. From 20 different people I hear 20 different opinions, no two the same. And none can exist mutually. One person's opinion contradicts the next, and then folks move on.

    I raise an issue with the preterists and they move on. The same with the dualists. Likewise with the futurists.

    I find the preterists most amusing. Why, because in Paul's day there were a group of people who believed the ressurrection was all over with.

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