Churches, Politics and Taxation Poll

by DarioKehl 22 Replies latest members private

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    I have spent many years with Establishment clause law. She has not been around long enough to have much expertise. Nor has she passed a bar.

    Oh Jesus Christ. BOTR--grow the F up!

    If you disagree with the substance of my comment, say so. If you think I have made a legal reasoning error, call it out.

    Otherwise, quit being Shelby-the-Second, and stop the personal attacks.

    You know, I had dinner a few months ago with another member, and he asked me what I thought of you. I told him that I did believe you were an attorney, but that I thought you were frequently medicated because your legal reasoning is often loose and meandering, and you make tons of spelling and grammatical errors.

    If you are on medication, just roll with it. Deal with the fact that it will cause you to miss some big issues, and quit getting p*ssed at me because I spot them.

    A church that lost tax exempt status: http://www.wnd.com/2000/05/4497/

  • blondie
    blondie

    Of course, there is the situation in Germany where there is a church tax, obligating their citizens to pay money to the church.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/06/world/europe/german-church-ties-tax-to-sacraments-after-court-ruling.html?pagewanted=all

    Many people came to the US to escape government interference in their practice of religion. The government still has a strong role with churches in Europe. I supposed if you no longer entertain any religious beliefs, taxing churches or no longer exempting them from taxes is not important religiously. In the article below, it is amazing how much the governments collect for the church, 6.3 billion in the case of the RC in Germany running 8 to 9 percent of the annual income tax per family.

    NYT

    October 5, 2012

    German Catholic Church Links Tax to the Sacraments

    By MELISSA EDDY

    BERLIN — It is a paradox of modern Germany that church and state remain so intimately tied. That bond persists more and more awkwardly, it seems, as the church’s relationship with followers continues to fray amid growing secularization.

    Last week one of Germany’s highest courts rankled Catholic bishops by ruling that the state recognized the right of Catholics to leave the church — and therefore avoid paying a tax that is used to support religious institutions. The court ruled it was a matter of religious freedom, while religious leaders saw the decision as yet another threat to their influence on modern German society.

    With its ruling the court also dodged the thorny issue of what happens when a parishioner formally quits the church, stops paying taxes, but then wants to attend services anyway. The court said that, too, was a matter of religious freedom, a decision that so rankled religious leaders fearful of losing a lucrative revenue stream that they made clear, right away, that taxes are the price for participation in the church’s most sacred rituals: no payments, no sacraments.

    The Catholic Bishops’ Conference in Germany issued a crystal clear, uncompromising edict, endorsed by the Vatican. It detailed that a member who refuses to pay taxes will no longer be allowed to receive communion or make confession, to serve as godparents or to hold any office in the church. Those who leave can also be refused a Christian burial, unless they “give some sign of repentance,” it read.

    “Whoever declares they are leaving the church before official authorities, for whatever reason, impinges on their responsibility to safeguard the community of the church, and against their responsibility to provide financial support to allow the church to fulfill its work” before their death, it read.

    The tussle highlighted the long-established but increasingly troubled symbiosis between church and state in Europe that, repeated polls have shown, grows more secular-minded as each generation moves further away from the church. Like many European countries, Germany’s churches are independent but function in partnership with the state, which collects taxes from members of established religions and then funnels the revenues back to the religious institutions, for a fee, in keeping with a 19th-century agreement following abolishment of an official state church.

    Income from church taxes in Germany amounted to about $6.3 billion for the Roman Catholic Church in 2011, and $5.5 billion for the Protestant, mostly Lutheran, churches in 2010, official statistics show. The money goes to support hospitals, schools, day care and myriad other social services, but a sizable amount of the Catholic money is also channeled to the Vatican.

    The German church tax — which is 8 to 9 percent of the annual income tax — is so steep, however, that many people formally quit the church to avoid paying, while nevertheless remaining active in their faith. That is what is angering Catholic Church officials.

    To many faithful, the court ruling validated that choice, and the edict from the Catholic Bishops’ Conference amounted to a sharp response by church leaders against the government’s increasingly aggressive secularism taking root in society. They see it threatening the future of the religious institutions upon which Germany’s modern democracy was founded.

    Unlike the United States, where politicians attend prayer breakfasts, and service as an altar boy is cast as a solid political credential, discussion of faith plays little role in German public discourse. Although Chancellor Angela Merkel’s party is called the Christian Democrats, and her father was a minister, the outward emphasis is far more on democracy than on Christianity.

    The contrast could be seen starkly at a recent gala in Berlin honoring 30 years since the former leader Helmut Kohl’s first term as chancellor. Of a dozen international speakers, only three sought God’s blessing for Germany. Two were the American speakers, the elder George Bush and Philip D. Murphy, the ambassador to Germany. The other was a Catholic priest.

    Even so, it is the United States, where churches are tax exempt, that prides itself on a constitutional separation between church and state, while most European governments continue to support their churches through a variety of means.

    In Belgium, Greece and Norway, churches are financed by the state. Churches in Austria, Switzerland and Sweden all use the state to collect taxes from members, but the contributions are either predetermined amounts or, compared with Germany, a more modest 1 to 2 percent of the annual assessed income tax. Spain and Italy allow congregants to decide whether they would like a percentage of their income to flow to religious organizations or be earmarked for civic projects.

    In Germany, roughly a third of its 82 million people are Roman Catholics, and about the same number belong to the country’s Protestant churches. All of these members, as well as the estimated 120,000 Jews, pay taxes to the state. Muslim organizations rely on donations or support from outside sources, often based in countries abroad.

    Critics charge that the German bishops’ decree denying sacraments to tax dodgers was driven more by greed than necessity, pointing out that belonging to a congregation in neighboring countries like the Netherlands or France is based on tithes, not a predetermined charge levied by the government.

    Indeed, the tax in Germany is blamed in part for driving about three million members from the ranks of the Roman Catholic Church over the past two decades, as disgruntled parishioners decided the payments were better spent on something else.

    Norbert Lüdecke, a professor of canon law at Bonn University, said that while every disobedient Catholic is to be punished based on the sin committed, the bishops’ decree effectively placed refusal to pay church taxes nearly on par with the most severe offenses in the church.

    “Now refusing to pay taxes is considered an offense only slightly less bad than denial that Jesus Christ is the son of God,” Mr. Lüdecke said. “While at the same time, there is no specific punishment for other offenses, such as, for example, the sexual abuse of minors by clerics.”

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Justitia,

    Why don't you grow up! YOu can cite all my errors. While I, too, discuss this forum with people. People I don't know very well. I was reluctant to see you jumping on me for very minute manners. During all of Conti, you could not join the discussion at all. When you finally did show up, it was once again to snipe about a tangential manner. This is NOT the behavior I am used to from law students and lawyers.

    Perhaps I wonder if you are a law student or a paralegal. I don't though b/c I want to be nicer than you. I never posted anything that merited your now constant snipes. A person can be on medication and not have it impact them. I practice law here and now. No, I do a better product when I am professionally engaged. Simon posted no rules concerning how "on the job" must be to post here. Everyone else posts so casually - I am entitled to do so.

    You should your utter ignorance concerning pain and medication. Consult any pain management site on the Internet.

    This is not a forum about issues. It starts out that way but viciousness lurks. If you have any real legal substance issues to debate with me, let us bring them on.

    I have no prof'l responsibility on this site. Neither do you. I know for a long time I simply ignored your off topic points. Well, another poster noted to me that you sweep down like an eagle to attack me. Never is there any substance involved. What gives you the gall to attack me personally. When I misstae the elements of a tort, give legal advice, you have every right to say something.

    Your sniping shows what you are. You are so small I never see you add much content or even your own thoughts. I do believe that Ms. Law Student is put out because I posted here as do other lawyers. You lost some of your polish. It is also interesting that no real lawyer here has ever been snide. So if I am so out of line, I will wait for a lawyer - not a law student- to point out the error of my ways. They have been silent. It takes a law student to have your view. You started attacking first.

    For God's sake, we have so much in common. Law (well, law school so far for you), a JW background. One would believe this would estabish some sisterhood. A smigeon of sisterhood should exist. Your comments are funny b/c I am known as Ms. Academia. I tend to analyze the theory of some issue rather than pragmatics.

    I know where I am now, where I have been. Your opinion is immaterial.

    You are a vicious person. I deserve far better. When I am being paid for a professional service, hold me to those standards. Not here. This forum is full of silly reasoning, ignorance, well-informed people. It is a mess. The down side for me, wtih your snide remarks and those of only two or three people, are enough. I have no duty to take them. So you can have the JW forum all to yourself. And the people will come down and worship before a law student.

    How does putting me down make your life better? No one need agree with me. People agreeing would be spooky. The personal attacks you level must stop. If I must leave, I will gladly leave. Jesus laid the framework for leaving. You are dust that I brush off under my feet.

  • Theocratic Sedition
    Theocratic Sedition

    Justia are you gonna take that?!?! BOTR just called you dust! BOTR, I like this aggressiveness you're displaying, no more mr.nicegal. Get em Band! Bout time you stood up for yourself around here and put dustmites like Justia in their place.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Justia are you gonna take that?!?!

    Yep. Something is wrong with her. Medical, psychological, both, I don't know... It's not worth my time; I will let her and Shelby have their fun...two peas...

  • Simon
    Simon

    Churches already get involved with politics and policy making, often with higher-up church folk on committees as though mankind needs their guidance (forgetting that their opinions are alwasy biased by jewish fairy stories).

    I say tax 'em till the pips squeek, then tax 'em more.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    After cooking dinner, it occurred to me BOTR, that you could think that I "swoop" in after you post. That's because you are one the few people who post anything to which I care to respond. Really, who else but a lawyer is going to cite Moore? And who else but an almost-lawyer will bother to counter why it is not like Moore?

    I apologize if my responses to your posts made you think I was targeting you.

  • DarioKehl
    DarioKehl

    The reason I posted this topic is because of this story. Have you guys heard what these idiots are doing???

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/1500-pastors-to-challenge-irs-restriction-on-pulpit-freedom-sunday-82808/

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Yes.They have done this for quite some time. The IRS just ignores them.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    well if they want to help raise revenue so we can adequately fund gov't, i say let 'em.

    and if it were to bankrupt a bunch of them (god willing) i say good riddance

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