Self Defense And Eschewing Violence: Mutually Exclusive?

by Cold Steel 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    It seems that the views on handgun ownership and weapons are sporatic among JWs. If I understand it correctly, it's generally okay to own guns and knives as long as they aren't to be acquired as weapons...even self defense. Some JWs say they have no problems with gun/knife ownership; others say that it's easier not to tell anyone they have them. And still others have had problems with anti-gun elders.

    The bottom line is that if someone wants to collect knives or shoot for recreation or hunting, that's okay. But to buy a gun or knife for self defense is a no-no. The question then is whether a man or woman can use a so-called "weapon of death" to protect themselves or their spouses and children. Most religions have no problems with self defense and being prepared against crime and violence.

    When you guys were active, or if you're active now, what were/are your experiences regarding the question of self defense? If you had to shoot someone in self defense and your .357 magnum was loaded with hot hollowpoints, it's clear you weren't going to use it for plinking. So what does the church teach or how does it lean? Do they take a turn-the-other-cheek approach or do the elders generally understand that self defense is a God-given right?

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    So no one has any stories regarding the right of self defense as viewed by Bethel? And has there been anything published in the Watchtower or Awake! magazines?

    If not, what kind of steel are you packing? And what do you keep in the dresser?

    I don't carry, but I do have a beautiful Ruger Security-Six loaded with police .38 Spc +P. Most churches don't try to interfere with a member's right to keep and bear arms, but few want members packing heat at church.

  • Eustace
    Eustace

    Here's a really messed up Watchtower Questions From Readers article from May 15th, 1990:

    ________________________

    Is it appropriate for a Christian to go hunting or fishing?The varied reactions to hunting often involve deep feelings. So it is best for Christians to strive to understand and apply Jehovah God’s thinking on the matter as found in the Bible.

    God gave mankind dominion over both “wild” and “domestic” animals. At first, humans did not have the Creator’s permission, nor perhaps any physical need, to kill animals for food. (Genesis 1:24, 29, 30) Only after the Flood did God give mankind the right to eat animal flesh that was properly drained of “its soul—its blood.” (Genesis 9:3, 4) That could be meat from either domestic or wild animals.

    The Israelites raised animals, such as sheep and cattle, that could be slaughtered for food when they craved meat. They also hunted and fished to obtain food. (Deuteronomy 12:20-24; 14:4-20) This harmonizes with God’s figurative saying that he would ‘send many fishers to fish for his people and many hunters to hunt for them.’ (Jeremiah 16:16) Later, Jesus included fishermen among his apostles and directed actual fishing operations.—Matthew 4:18-22; 17:27; Luke 5:2-6; John 21:4-7.

    When the aged patriarch Isaac asked for a tasty meat dish, his son Jacob was willing to kill two young goats to make a dish for him. Esau, though, hunted a wild animal to get venison for his father. Note that although meat from domestic animals was available, Isaac asked for meat from a game animal. Note, too, that both sons killed animals that would be food, not for themselves, but for someone else.—Genesis 27:1-19.

    Animals might be killed for reasons other than their meat. Their skins could be made into clothing. (2 Kings 1:8; Mark 1:6; Hebrews 11:37) Protective coverings and utensils were also made from animal hides, even of animals dietarily unclean and that Israelites did not eat.—Exodus 39:33, 34; Numbers 24:7; Judges 4:19; Psalm 56:8.

    God’s requirement that the blood of slain animals be poured out should remind hunters that animal life is from him and so ought to be treated respectfully, not wantonly. (Leviticus 17:13) Nimrod evidently slaughtered animals and probably boasted about his hunting skill, the size or number of his kills, or the trophies that might have been made from them. He was “a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah.”—Genesis 10:9.

    Such a thrill over hunting or killing animals, or over reeling in fish, could develop in a Christian. Many a hunter or fisherman who has scrutinized his heart has discovered that he was infected with the ‘joy of the kill.’ Such excitement goes hand in hand with wanton disregard for animal life. So while it is not wrong to hunt or fish (when the kill or catch will be used by someone for food or another fitting purpose), it would be improper to do so if a Christian had a spirit reminiscent of Nimrod. But there are dangers besides getting a thrill out of the chase, the kill, or a trophy.

    The

    Watchtower of July 15, 1983, discussed why true Christians do not carry or keep guns for use against humans or protection from them. (ED: What a bunch of nonsense!) (Pages 23-6) Meditating on that counsel has led some Witnesses to reevaluate having even hunting guns. Not a few have chosen to get rid of their guns altogether or to avoid having them on display and readily accessible. These Christians thus would not give the impression of taking pride in weapons or trusting in them. Furthermore, not even having hunting guns, or not having them easily accessible, can avert tragedy. The deadly weapons could not then come into the hands of children who might accidentally hurt or kill someone, nor would guns be at hand if someone was extremely frightened or depressed.—Compare Proverbs 22:3.

    Some Christians may like the flavor of certain game or fish, and the most practical way to obtain such food is by hunting or fishing. Others enjoy the air and exercise linked with hunting in the woods, or find that quiet hours of fishing are relaxing. The Bible does not speak against this, so there is no need to judge others as to whether they enjoy such things or not. And the example of Isaac and his sons shows that there is no need to make an issue of who will eat the game or fish.—Matthew 7:1-5; Romans 14:4.

    The apostle Peter was evidently quite attached to fishing. With some fish lying nearby, the resurrected Jesus helped him to analyze his own feelings about fish or the fishing business. Jesus asked: “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”—John 21:1-3, 9-15; see TheWatchtower, November 1, 1988, page 31.

    Similarly, a Christian who in good conscience chooses to go hunting or fishing should have his priorities in order. For example, if a hunting or fishing season was to open at a time when congregation meetings were scheduled, what would he do? Or does his conversation show that he takes pride in his prowess at hunting or fishing? How fine it is if a mature Christian who, on occasion, chooses to hunt or fish can say with conviction: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you [more than for these pursuits].”—John 21:16.

  • Eustace
    Eustace

    Here's the 1983 Watchtower passage where the use of guns for self-defense was condemned:

    Where

    Violence is striking fear in the hearts of people of the large cities of the earth. According to a recent Gallup poll, 45 percent of Americans are afraid to go out alone at night within a mile of their home. Many carry guns. But is this the road that Jehovah’s Witnesses should take—to meet possible violence by preparing to be violent? The many accidents involving “weapons of self-defense”—with young children even killing other youngsters—should cause us to pause and examine the situation. It is well known that a professional gunman, when he sees another gun, will shoot—and shoot to kill. What chance then does the gun-toting amateur have! The Christian will find protection, not in possessing firearms, but in ‘seeking peace and pursuing it.’ (1 Peter 3:11) Trust in Jehovah. If you are confronted by a criminal, make it known that you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Do not resist the one who threatens violence; give him the material belongings that he demands. Your life is more valuable than these. When cornered and threatened, call on Jehovah for help. Remember: “The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous runs and is given protection.”—Proverbs 18:10. However, would there not be occasions, such as in traveling through dangerous insurgent territory, when Jehovah’s Witnesses might be better off carrying firearms for self-defense? The answer emphatically is No. (Compare Ezra 8:21-23, 31; 2 Corinthians 11:23-27.) Take for example our traveling overseers in a certain African country. In recent years these brothers often were required to pass through war zones when serving the congregations. At times they were accosted by guerrillas or by security forces. If firearms had been found on them it would have cost them their life. With few exceptions, their identity as Jehovah’s Witnesses, along with the absence of any weapons of violence, gave them passage to their destination. It is the same in strife-torn Northern Ireland, where it has been said that “death is part of the landscape.” The neutrality of Jehovah’s Witnesses is well known, and as peace lovers they find protection in both Catholic and Protestant areas. The Scriptures, backed up by the modern-day experience of Jehovah’s Witnesses, make it plain that it is inadvisable for individual Christians to carry, or have in their possession at home or in other locations, a firearm or other lethal weapon for use against human attackers or intruders. (Isaiah 2:4; 1 Peter 3:11) One who prepares for violence invites violence. Rather, the Christian’s main trust should be in Jehovah, his God.—Psalm 18:48; 140:1, 4; Proverbs 3:5-7
    IsOur Protection?

  • Eustace
    Eustace

    If you are confronted by a criminal, make it known that you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    As we all know criminals are more afraid of Jehovah than they are of guns!

    What a great freaking idea, Watchtower.

    But I guess it's probably all part of the general cult thing where they try to disempower their members so they're easier to control.

    The exteme example of that tendency was of course the disgusting thing the Hale Bopp cult had their members do. At the same time, not recognizing the right of people to practice self-defense is still pretty messed up.

  • biometrics
    biometrics

    Luke 22:36 - 38:

    36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

    38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

    “That’s enough!” he replied.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    When cornered and threatened, call on Jehovah for help. Remember: “The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous runs and is given protection.” —Proverbs 18:10

    Somehow I think the writer may be a bit confused. Is this canonized or just advice? It's not like getting a blood transfusion, is it? Anyway, a man who will not defend his wife and children is a coward. And a woman who will not defend her children is worse.

    Years ago, a woman was confronted by an intruder. She had a handgun, but could not bring herself to shoot him, despite the knife he held in his right hand. As he realized she didn't have it in her, he advanced steadily while the woman's hand and gun shook. Then something amazing happened. Her four year old son came into the room. The mother and intruder saw him at the same time, and the man turned to the woman and grinned wickedly. He then stepped towards the child and was then plugged by all six shots from the woman's revolver! She wouldn't shoot for her own defense, but when the guy threatened her son, she blasted him into the next world! We see animals defend themselves from other animals. We see mothers protect their young. Doesn't nature teach us that this is the proper way? Man is the only animal that I know of who has no built-in means of self defense. In the wild we can fall prey to cougars and bears, and in the cities we can fall victim to 2-legged animals. And should we take their lives, it prevents them from harming others.

    I know many JWs who don't abide by the Watchtower advice. They have their guns and just keep them out of sight. But what happens if a JW shoots a convicted rapist or other dangerous criminal? Will disciplinary action be taken against them? (Oh, and BTW, that bit about professional shooters bopping off "amateur" homeowners is hilarious! There are many cases where bad guys are routinely snuffed by homeowners with guns.

    And what do they say aboutLuke 22:36-38?

    Question:What if a Jehovah's Witness writes a letter to the editor of the Watchtower similar to the above? Would they 1) publish his/her letter in the WT with a reply; 2) send a note to his or her KH Overseer suggesting one of their members has a roaring bad attutude; or 3) other?

  • biometrics
    biometrics

    Luke 22:36-38 is clearly referring to two literal swords.

    Here's an example of how they try and explain it away: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120321004435AAEMn1V

    Firstly they try to tie self defence in with their "concencious objector" stance. Clearly self defence and going to war are two separate issues.

    Then they say Jesus rebuked Peter for using a sword. Saying the disciples took Jesus too literally about swords.

    Jesus knew they had swords, he told them get them.

  • Theocratic Sedition
    Theocratic Sedition

    Jesus told Peter to put his sword away, I always figured that was as good as any reason to assume self defense with a gun is inappropriate for a Christian. Most if not all the Christians we read about in the Bible were martyred without any attempt at physical self defense.

    Easier said than done I suppose in this day and age where Christians make up significant portions of the populace. I'd gladly hand out a severe azz whoopin if pressed. I imagine to go from that form of self defense to shooting someone isnt much of a leap. I'm by myself but if I had a family to defend I'd probably be more willing to have a gun. I do get the feeling some of these 2nd ammendment types are a bit paranoid and some overanxious to kill someone. Plenty of them are Christians too.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Well look. If you believe in Christ and a representative of a government come to your house and says, " I am authorized by the state to execute you if you do not renounce your faith and swear allegience to the Government.." then YOU have a choice to make. If you choose to die for your faith based on something true ( not like Malawi ) I can respect that. If some moron/criminal off the street wants to kill me, then it's on. It is him or me. I am under no obligation to let someone take my life for no good reason, or my families for that matter. I do not own a gun, but have no problem with others having one. I believe there is a newer article saying that neutralizing an opponents is acceptable, just don't cross the line. You don't ever want to kill someone if you don't have to. I think most law enforcement officials would agree that it is best not to use excessive force. As a Christian you have the right to defend yourself. One friend of mine who is an Detective for the police said if you shoot someone outside your house, drag them back inside for legal reasons, crazy... Here is one article from the ol' GB!

    The Bible's ViewpointWhen Is Self-Defense Justified? A SUDDEN noise awakens you in the middle of the night. You hear footsteps. Someone has broken into your home. With your heart beating like a hammer in your chest, you fearfully wonder what you should do next.This is a situation that anyone could face. Crime-even violent crime-is no longer limited to certain countries or big cities. In the resultant climate of fear, many people seek protection by purchasing weapons or learning martial arts. Some governments have enacted laws that give citizens the right to use deadly force to defend themselves. But what does the Bible say? Is a person ever justified in using force to defend himself or his family?God Hates ViolenceThe Bible condemns violence and those who resort to it. The psalmist David said regarding Jehovah God: "Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates." (Psalm 11:5) God pronounced judgment against several ancient nations, including his own people, because of their violence and bloodshed. (Joel 3:19; Micah 6:12; Nahum 3:1) Even unintentional manslaughter resulting from carelessness was a serious crime under the Law given to Israel.-Deuteronomy 22:8.The Bible exhorts individuals to avoid potential conflicts by pursuing peace every day. Violent struggles often begin with a heated exchange of words. The Bible observes: "Where there is no wood the fire goes out, and where there is no slanderer contention grows still." (Proverbs 26:20) Calmness often defuses anger and deflects violent confrontation. The apostle Paul wrote: "If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men."-Romans 12:18.When You Are ThreatenedPursuing peace does not guarantee that you will never face violent attack. Faithful worshippers of God throughout history have been victims of violent crime. (Genesis 4:8; Job 1:14, 15, 17) If a person is confronted by an armed robber, what should he do? Jesus instructed: "Do not resist him that is wicked." (Matthew 5:39) He also said: "From him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment." (Luke 6:29) Jesus did not condone use of physical weapons to defend material possessions. If confronted by an armed robber, a wise person will not resist giving up his valuables. Surely, life is far more precious than belongings!On the other hand, what if a person's life is threatened by an assailant? A law that God gave to ancient Israel sheds light on this. If a thief was caught in the daytime and was killed, the assailant would be charged with murder. This was evidently because thievery did not carry the death penalty and the thief could have been identified and brought to justice. However, if an intruder was fatally struck at night, the householder could be exonerated because it would be difficult for him to see what the intruder was doing and to ascertain the intentions of the intruder. The householder could reasonably conclude that his family was under threat of harm and take defensive action.-Exodus 22:2, 3.The Bible thus indicates that a person may defend himself or his family if physically assaulted. He may ward off blows, restrain the attacker, or even strike a blow to stun or incapacitate him. The intention would be to neutralize the aggression or stop the attack. This being the case, if the aggressor was seriously harmed or killed in such a situation, his death would be accidental and not deliberate.The Best ProtectionClearly, there are circumstances under which reasonable self-defense is justified. People have a right to protect themselves and their loved ones from aggression and deadly harm. When escape is not possible, there is no Biblical injunction against reasonably defending ourselves. Still, the course of wisdom would be to do our best to avoid situations with a potential for violence.-Proverbs 16:32.The Bible encourages us to "seek peace and pursue it" in all avenues of our life. (1 Peter 3:11) This is a practical formula that really contributes to peaceful living.

    Since avoiding dangerous situations in the first place is self-defense, then it must be justified. Also having the capacity for violence is not the same as enjoying it.

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