Who did Paul pray to:

by fulltimestudent 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  fulltimestudent

  I recently bought Geza Vermes new book, Christian Beginnings-from Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30-325, I thought it may useful for a study unit I want to take next year, on the topic of Early Christian writings. These documents, such as The Shepherd of Hermas, help us to appreciate what early Christians really believed and also provide details of their behaviour(s).

  Vermes*, as well as being extremely knowledgeable on the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls, is regarded scholastically, as one of the world's leading Jesus scholars.

  So to the point of this thread: On page 106 of my hardcover, Allen Lane/Penguin, 2012 edition of this book, Vermes commences analysing The Status of Christ in the Pauline Religion, and under that sub-heading he concludes that in (authentic) Pauline theology, the son always occupies an inferior position, and draws on Paul's writings to support his position. On pages 111,112 he lists texts to demonstrate that Paul directed his prayers to God alone, and "never to Jesus!"

  As end of semester approaches I have not the time to read analytically the Letters attributed to Paul, in the Bible, so I thought I'd ask here whether anyone can recall a text that has Paul praying to Jesus?

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  * Note: His early scholastic training was as a Catholic priest, but he later left the church and converted to Judaism.
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  bennyk

  2 Cor. 12:7b-9

  I would suggest that verse 9 indicates that the "Lord" to whom Paul addressed his prayer was "Christ".
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  slimboyfat

  Larry Hurtado has written screeds on this topic. Personally I think the evidence that Paul prayed to Jesus is pretty slender.
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  Ding

  Paul's encounter in Acts 9 involves an extended dialogue with the risen Christ.

  1 Corinthians 1:2... Christians everywhere calling on the name of Jesus...

  2 Corinthians 12:8-9: "Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; 9 but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for
  you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

  Acts 22:14-16: "And he said, `The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth;
  15 for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'"
  
  Paul also prayed to the Father: Ephesians 3:14.
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  Sulla

  "Screeds." Slim, sometimes you are really too much. Like, enough already.
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  fulltimestudent

  Thanks for your thoughts guys! I'll post my thoughts seperately.

  Here's a list of the texts Vermes uses as a base for his conclusion. He calls them Prayer formulas:

  Romans 8:15 /15:5-6/15:30

  1 Corinthians 1:4 / 14:25 /15:57

  2 Corinthians 2:14 / 8:16 /9:15 / 13:7

  Galations 4:6

  Philipians 1:3

  1 Thessalonians 1:2,3 / 3:9 / 5:23

  2 Thessalonians 1:3

  under the headings of Benedictions and doxologies, Vermes lists:

  Romans 11:36 / 16:27

  2 Corinthians 1:3 / 11:31

  Philipians 4:20

  You'll note that all the above texts come from texts which are from writings that are generally accepted as 'genuine.' Vermes accepts the common view among NT scholars that, Ephesians, Colossians, 2 thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are psuedographic.
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  Pterist

  Thank you Fulltimestudent ....great research.

  In one seem very strange that if anyone is in UNION with Christ Jesus that no "spiritual" communication is going on.

  Man and women are one in marriage ,,.....guess whose talking ......

  Hebrews: 2:10-13...I will praise you among my brethren..... We can NOT pray the "our Father" prayer or call the all powerful Deity, FATHER without Christ leading us and praying with us in HIS righteousness.

  Shalom
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  fulltimestudent

  Pterist, thank U for the compliment, but I want to make it clear that what I have posted is NOT "my" research. I'm merely quoting and discussing the thoughts and work of the venerable scholar, Geza Vermes.

  And, if I may comment on your thoughts - it would seem that like many other respected scholars, Vermes does not neccessarily recognise Hebrews as a 'genuine' document written (or dictated) by Paul.

  More, this concept sees Christianity as a developing religion, one that over the 300 (approximately) years to Constantine and his legalisation of the Church, gradually develops concepts that do not seem to be in the minds of the earliest Christians. That's not what the WTS (in the form of Russell, Rutherford or Franz (the F.) wants to believe, nor for that matter do most of the churches that form Christendom want to believe it either. But it is the concept that seems most commonly held, among the people who spend their lives poring over the early writings.
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  Satanus

  Sounds interesting. The wt org would like his finding on prayers to god, not jesus, as many christians prefer.

  Does he also mention the different threads of christianity that developed up to the time that it became the 'universal' church? This is also something generally unkown, and apoint that i find important.

  S
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  Pterist

  Thanks again Fulltimestudent.

  **** it would seem that like many other respected scholars, Vermes does not neccessarily recognise Hebrews as a 'genuine' document written (or dictated) by Paul.******

  True, I remember I did a free online theology course with similar critical analysis of Paul's letters. It also stated that, what was considered Paul's letters were inserted in the NT in order of Size. Hebrews was put last because it was very doubtful it was his work.

  Shalom , I consider myself a Constant Student, ( although I'm a 55 years old fart, lol) so I like your handle. ;)