Patterson on the line: Watchtower claims that paying cash bond would cause “immediate irreparable harm and hardship”

by cedars 339 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent

    Season you words with salt. Draw the brothers toward a right conclusion. Do not browbeat the brothers. Offer commendation, offer suggestions, then end with commendation and encouragement. Always protect the brother's dignity when offering correction.

    These were things I was taught when I was being trained to take the lead in the congregation. They would be well applied here.

    Some have the academic training, professional experience, wide reading or general acumen to identify flaws in the author's words including issues of accuracy. But they have failed to engage the author to draw him toward the professional standard of analysis and writing they critique him against.

    These ones might have enjoyed the support and guidance of professors, supervisors and peers to attain their high skills. They have the privilege of choosing whether to engage those beginning their post-JW life with the patience, kindness and dignity they might have liked to receive when they were starting off. Or calling them liars and Watchtower stooges and challenging them to some kind of face off.

    The record shows choices made.

    Max

    Of the just say I haven’t been around long enough or have posted too much class.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    I bring up this article because it seems a small number on this forum believe that if I can't get all my facts straight FIRST TIME I should write absolutely
    nothing. Well, if the New Statesman magazine can write false information without even amending errors when these are brought to their
    attention, why can't Iwrite on important issues that few journalists can be bothered to cover with the proviso that I will gladly fix any wrong
    information that is mistakenly included in my articles?
    Cedar's message is clear: "everyone else does it, so why can't I?"................KingSolomon

    Bullshit..

    Your one of the most intellectually dishonest posters we have had here in a long time..

    Heres the real Quote:

    Well, if the New Statesman magazine can write false information without even amending errors when these are brought to their attention, why can't I write on important issues that few journalists can be bothered to cover with the proviso that I will gladly fix any wrong information that is mistakenly included in my articles?.....Cedars

    You chose not to Hi-light the entire quote because it didn`t serve your purpose..

    ........................... ...OUTLAW

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    Oh, Cedars, nice touch with the so-called "Katherine and Candice Conti" letter, with the "it has come to my attention" bit.
    Assuming it IS from Conti (doubt it), did you actually dash off an e-mail, asking her permission for you to tell us all lies,
    crying about a meanie on JWN who efuses to swallow your spoonful of lies?.....King Solomon

    Guess what Genius?..

    I`m one of the few here who can get that verified..

    I don`t doubt Kathleen Conti wrote him..But you know what..

    I`ll go find out..

    If it turns out to be true..I`ll be back to kick your ass..

    For causing Candace and her mom Grief..

    .......................... ...OUTLAW

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    Outlaw, kudos for keeping KS on his toe.

    Scott77

  • free @ last
    free @ last

    This exchange With KS goes back a few pages so I'll repost before clarifying...

    Free at last said:

    Cedars has already made it clear that he does not appreciate your criticism KS. Why not just ignore his posts and avoid clicking on his links if you don't like sensationalism. Head to JWFacts if you're looking for something more factual.

    Uh, because JWN is a discussion forum?

    You, I, Cedars, or anyone else is free to read or ignore ANY post, just as they wish. My comment wasn't directed at Cedars, but to the other readers of this topic who have (and will) engage in this topic on JWN, just like for any other thread.

    (and it wasn't even 'criticism', unless you think considering consequences is somehow critical? Funny how you didn't jump on Scott77 for that, as if there's a "don't DARE say anything that might displease Cedars on ANYTHING!" policy on JWN? )

    It's unfortunate that thread titles cannot be changed; this one could definitely be reworded to better reflect the actual state of the Conti case right now. Bugger.

    No need to make excuses for him: Cedars made it perfectly clear he's not interested in changing the erroneous claim (as seen in the title or as found on his site).

    When you analyze the merits of someone else's arguments or writing you are making a critical analysis of it. Generally offering critisism is a good thing. In this case though it's clearly wasted; he is no longer willing to hear it from you. He obviously feels under attack. I had hoped you would have dropped it just for the sake of avoiding giving him more space to display what seems to me like paranoia. I personally do not like what I see as sensationalism in his posts either so I don't usually click on them. The title of this one was so over the top though I just had to peek. Glad I did now because I see some other posters have brought some balance to the topic. The unfortunate title still stands so readers who don't have the patience to wade through the pages of posts may still go away thinking that "Patterson is on the line" or worse just have the proof they might be looking for that apostates are so desperate they will spin any obscure detail to try to make the society look bad. Ah well...

    Good to have you posting here. You bring some balance to the board and a whole lotta common sense.

    I think anyone trying to make a full-time job of 'bringing down the society' is setting themselves up for disappointment in the long run. But hey they're more than welcome to try.

    Free

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    Cedars : First of all thnx for bringing this to our attention ,it has brought forth a lot of discussion ,even if a lot of it at this time is speculation and wotif`s .

    So I would like to throw my own iron in the fire as to why the society has put up the Patterson complex in lieu of cash.

    In this type of situation , isn`t it human nature to firstly dispense of a potential liabillity ?

    Could it possibly be that the Patterson complex was also a dumping ground for toxic chemical waste from their printing operations ? that they haven`t disclosed to the authourities ? and heres a chance to offload it ? They have been guilty of it before you know . O.K .I know it may be left feild but I wouldn`t be surprised what they would do using" theocratic warfare"justification ......just saying....

    smiddy

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia
    ÁrbolesdeArabia

    JT what country are you attending Law School? Did you enjoy the 88 hours a week in year 1 of studying? Are you writing for your schools "Law Journal"? I enjoy hearing about the pain and suffering from Year 1 and 2 Law.

  • cedars
    cedars

    King Solomon, you ARE a hypocrite, and I'm not going to let you forget it, or weasel your way out of the accusation with your twisted smokescreen logic.

    By the way, I LOVE how you wait until I'm offline before making your posts so I can't reply immediately due to the time difference, particularly since I saw you online long before I went to sleep when I could have responded. Classy move.

    So, here's my brief "article" on King Solomon. Bear in mind I can only make any edits for accuracy within 25 minutes, unlike my website, so I'll do my best to get it right first time!

    WHY KING SOLOMON IS A HYPOCRITE

    King Solomon believes faders are cowards, and that they should "move on with their lives" by "voting with their feet" - i.e. leaving the organization regardless of family. Note the following...

    post 1908:

    As far as the JW apologist crap: ever consider that it's petty, self-centered narcissistic individuals like you and BluePill who make it such a bitter, toxic environment in the JWs? Ironic, no? Many here on JWN are self-actualized enough to come up with an exit strategy, and simply vote with their feet and move on with their lives (novel concept, no?), putting on their big-kid undies and pay the price (DF/shun). Others fester in their mire, and try to drag others into their pain, or use ineffectual acting-out tirades that usually just blow up in their faces and hurts them when it's sloppily implemented.

    Note the use of the derisory term "big-kid undies" to imply that anyone who stays within the organization because they're NOT prepared to "pay the price (DF/shun)" is somehow immature or not "self-actualized" enough.

    Here's another more recent example of him mocking faders...

    20th Oct, post 3012...

    Cedars doesn't have the courage to come out of the Apostate closet in real life, being unwilling to pay the price of shunning in order to speak one's opinion against the JWs freely and openly. Instead, he's doing it anonymously. Gotta walk the walk, man.....

    Note how KS claims that I lack courage by failing to "come out of the Apostate closet", instead doing my work anonymously for fear of shunning! So, yesterday, I pointed out that King Solomon is indeed a hypocrite for pointing the finger at faders like me who choose to remain anonymous when HE is in a position to use his real identity (having never been a Witness) and yet chooses not to do so.

    I said...

    If he wants to throw punches, he should be prepared to receive a few "home truths" in return, most notably the fact that he's a hypocrite for labelling faders as cowards for maintaining anonymity when he's apparently in a position to come clean as to HIS real identity but refuses to.

    He said...

    "Come clean" of what exactly? Were you going somewhere with that thought?

    You think everyone on an internet forum who uses a pseudonym is hypocritical for not divulging THEIR actual IDs, like that's required for participation? REALLY? As if there's not MANY GOOD REASONS one might have to maintain anonymity (privacy rights of family members, ID theft risk, etc)?

    NO King Solomon, I do NOT think that EVERYONE (exaggeration noted) on an internet forum is hypocritical for not revealing their identity. In fact, I support those who remain anonymous - especially when they are doing this for fear of being shunned by friends and family. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses (unlike you) and therefore I'm accutely sensitive to the painful consequences of shunning, both for myself and for others. That said, I DO think YOU are a hypocrite for implying that faders lack courage unless they "come out of the apostate closet", put on "their bi-kid undies" and "pay the price" whilst keeping your own identity a closely guarded secret!! This is something you do despite never having actually been a Witness, leaving you free from the threat of Watchtower-sanctioned shunning. That makes you a terrible hypocrite. Nice try at side-stepping the argument though.

    King Solomon is also a hypocrite for writing pages and pages essentially accusing jwfacts of using a misquote on his website. Here is the thread...

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/236655/1/Fantastic-quote-on-jwfacts-Sparlock-article

    As you will see, KS wrongly accused jwfacts of misquoting the 1994 Awake! magazine by not providing the words that followed after the quote (in the next paragraph!). Here is what he said on 17th September (post 2161)...

    Now, if you find conducting objective analyses of the facts to be so objectionable, consider seeing if you can get reinstated into "the Truth": they ALSO have little regard for distorting easily-verifiable facts, which any JW would reasonably do by pulling up the 1994 Awake!, only to find the quote was cherry-picked, taken out of context by ignoring the admonishment to consider the stumbling effect on others. Quote-mining instantly undermines the author's credibility, whether the author is the WTBTS or a WT critic, as removing quotes out of context is a "foul" regardless of who does it.

    With King Solomon's words about quote-mining ringing in our ears, let's look at him do exactly the thing he condemned on this very thread!

    My words...

    Well, if the New Statesman magazine can write false information without even amending errors when these are brought to their attention, why can't I write on important issues that few journalists can be bothered to cover with the proviso that I will gladly fix any wrong information that is mistakenly included in my articles?

    King Solomon's response...

    Cedars said:

    Well, if the New Statesman magazine can write false information without even amending errors when these are brought to their attention, why can't I...?

    In a defamation lawsuit (libel, with malice), that would be considered the classic, "If THEY can do it, why can't I?" defense, AKA "you'd be better off pleading guilty" defense.

    Those words above make it clear that he's not worried about the truth of what the legal documents actually say (despite JT, who is a lawyer, telling him what they actually say); he prefers instead to take a cheap shot at the Society and go with his fiction.

    So there you have it folks. King Solomon is ALSO a hypocrite because he completely ignores his own assertion that "removing quotes out of context is a 'foul' regardless of who does it".

    A small "shout out" goes to slimboyfat for inadvertently drawing my attention to this mis-quote, thanks! And people wonder why I refuse to be interested in King Solomon's opinion... well now you know. He's not just abusive, insulting and patronizing, he's also a raging hypocrite. Little wonder he doesn't understand the meaning of the word "contradiction"!

    KS, you have also "called my bluff" by asking me to prove that you have used "threatening" language per posting guideline 1. Interesting how you don't challenge my assertion on the "insulting" or "provoking" parts of that clause, most likely because you know you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

    So, for the record, I submit my evidence your honor...

    KING SOLOMON USES THREATENING LANGUAGE

    Here is the dictionary definition of the word "threatening"...

    threat·en (thrtn)

    v.threat·ened, threat·en·ing, threat·ens v.tr. 1. To express a threat against. 2. To be a source of danger to; menace. 3. To give signs or warning of; portend. 4. To announce the possibility of in a threat. v.intr. 1. To express or use threats. 2. To indicate danger or harm.

    I have used the first dictionary on the search engine but other dictionaries express similar multiple meanings.

    Most significantly, you will note that strictly speaking "threatening language" does not need to contain a direct threat, it merely needs to be threatening or ominous in nature, as in warning of harm or danger, supposed or otherwise.

    Here is King Solomon's post from 7th September 2012 (no. 1865)...

    Cedars, weren't YOU the guy worried about being outed by the WT (hence why you didn't challenge the YT takedown of the Sparlock video), so as to maintain your anonymity? It's likely YOU that should be worried, as he's not at risk of being outed.
    You DO realize that by posting infringing copyright material on JWN, you've made it MUCH EASIER for WTBTS to ID you, than even by YT?

    Here's how the scenario is likely to play out:

    All downloaded video originally came from WTBTS page (or the DVD, which contains a similar legal notice) which says:


    Legal Notices

    Terms of Use

    Site visitors may download copyrighted materials for their personal, non-commercial use only. By downloading such materials from this site, visitors agree not to post these materials on any electronic network, redistribute them without written permission, or share these materials in exchange for money, even if no profit is involved. Site visitors may not modify, publish, or participate in the transfer or sale of any of the content, in whole or in part.


    Copyright

    © 2012 Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. All rights reserved.

    This Web site is published and maintained by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. Unless otherwise indicated, all text and other information contained in this Web site are the intellectual property of Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. All rights reserved.


    That's a bog-standard legal 'click-wrap' EULA (End User Licensing Agreement). WTBTS in Brooklyn Legal Dep't owns the rights to the video footage, and anyone who uses the content agrees (whether they downloaded it there, or elsewhere from a mirrored site).

    So WT assigns rights to WT Legal Dept in UK to protect their interests, and use the posts you made with GIFs, video links, etc (and your incriminating statements) to draft a request for a court order in the UK (privacy rights in UK are stricter than US, but you've given plenty of probable cause to get a court order from a judge), and WT UK serves the order on JWN, who HAS to give all information they have on user ID "Cedars" (name, address, IP/ISP, chat logs, post times, etc). That's not OPTIONAL on their part: they HAVE to roll over on you, in order to limit their copyright infringement liability (and if Simon is a subscriber, he's not necessarily in the loop: you violated the forum posting rules by posting someone else's content to the site).

    Once armed with the ID info from JWN, WT UK Legal relays it to WT Brooklyn Legal to issue a DMCA order in the U.S. to obtain specific info to locate your ISP (based on DNS), and then they have YOUR name, YOUR address (if you were posting at home/work), YOUR phone number, etc. You may have been clever and used a VPN, proxy, or anonymizer (eg Tor), but those are rather useless nowadays: they were effective in the 1990's, but nowadays security experts have pointed out basic vulnerabilities that mean they offer only a minor nuisance to IT pros.

    Once WT have your personal information, Brooklyn HQ makes a call to your local Elders, and next thing you know you're invited after a meeting to the 'screaming baby' room for a "friendly chat" for you to do some explaining.

    Thus it's actually less of a challenge legally for WT to locate an infringer when they post content on JWN, because at least with the YT/DCMA regime, you could simply allow the video to be taken down and NOT file a counter-notice to maintain your anonymity. That's not an option here: the WTBTS doesn't need ANYONE'S consent to reassign rights and obtain a UK court order (and you've already given plenty of probable cause, by the self-incriminating statements made in this thread where you admit).

    So then you're facing JC, PLUS the spectre of having to defend a DMCA copyright infringement lawsuit in U.S> Fed Court, with the prosecutor noting your legal defense posted above ("But everyone else did it!" In legal terms, that's worse than, "Your Honor, I'm guilty...." as it doesn't work when you're 5 with your Mom, and it won't work in Fed Court).

    Even preparing a defense is going to cost mucho $$, and with a weak 'fair-use' defense as this you'd likely be hit with an adverse judgment. The WTBTS has deeper pockets than God. After you likely lose the case, you get to explain you were DFed for posting a video of an ASL translator saying, "masturbation" over and over, in a loop.... Then who's got egg on their face?

    I challenge anyone not to find deliberately threatening or ominous language in the above post. It was clearly intended, not as a friendly warning, but as an attempt to intimidate me by claiming I should be "worried" and making me believe the Watchtower Society was coming after me due to my "self-incriminating statements". I therefore stand by my claim that King Solomon HAS contravened posting guideline 1 against me in full, albeit across various posts and threads, particularly since even HE won't challenge me on the number of times he has used "insulting" or "provoking" language.

    Again, people wonder why I don't value his opinion?

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    I can also tell you that this thread is causing a considerable amount of distress to Kathleen and Candace Conti, which I'm pleased to hear that OUTLAW is investigating. I will assist him in his investigation in any way I can.

    It's a shame a handful of idiots (desperate to gain credibility by trampling over others) have to ruin this forum for everyone.

    I've said from the beginning, I have NO PROBLEM with people disagreeing with me. I welcome feedback on my articles so that I can fix any errors. I DO, however, have a problem with people who get needlessly personal. Those who do this (such as King Solomon) should expect to receive back what they hand out. Still, it's ugly when things get so confrontational, and I apologize if I upset anyone in my responses to King Solomon. He has raised accusations that I feel compelled to answer, and I also feel the need to highlight that he is a hypocrite, which is one of many reasons why I refuse to give any attention to his posts unless I am forced to do so.

    Cedars

  • Refriedtruth
    Refriedtruth

    Don't feed the trolls/shills. A shill, plant or stooge is a person who helps a person or organization without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or organization . ... I suspect the top # 1 shill postings are from Scientology they have multiple shill sites. I suspect that the JW are in second place. The kicker is Jesus said whoever was ashamed of admitting him or denied him that Jesus would in turn 'deny him to the father'. I don't post like I used to (in other forums) but when I was regular 50% or more of JW apologist post (who deny their faith,who they really are) were shills. I believe there are fewer JW shills here at JWN than at other spots on the web,but they are still a few present here at this forum. (edit-think about it anyone who would shill for the 'truth' is a demonic deceptive psychopath.)

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