Well,if you do it yourself,its way more personal.Like if I shunned someone from MY life for say,spreading untrue stuff about me,I wouldnt demand that everyone associated with me shun them as well.Its ridiculous,the JW's dont even know WHY one was disfellowshipped and they treat you like a poisonous snake.Absurd,and as far a I am concerned,the dubs are getting exactly what they deserve,right now.
Shunning non-JWs and shunning in general
by jws 18 Replies latest jw friends
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lisaBObeesa
So, then the convicted child molester who raped his daughter should be allowed to talk to his daughter, even if the daughter and her mother doesn't want to have any contact with him?
I did not say that or even anything close to that.
I said that prisoners in jail are still allowed to talk to their family and friends (letters, phone calls, visits). You have found an exception.
How about this: MOST prisoners are allowed to talk to their family and friends and MOST shunned ex-JWS are not.
Remember that secular law allows the use of a restraining order, where the offender is absolutely disallowed to make any contact with their victims, or go back to jail/prison, so there's an example of enforced shunning in criminal law.
I guess a restraining order is close to JW shunning, but it is not a perfect parallel, because the person is not cut off from contact of almost all of their family and friends.
BTW, almost ALL religions practice a form of shunning
We are talking about the way JWs shun in this thread. Almost all religions do NOT practice this form of shunning. only a very few abusive groups do.
it's entirely voluntary to be a member
Many are born into it.
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King Solomon
So, then the convicted child molester who raped his daughter should be allowed to talk to his daughter, even if the daughter and her mother doesn't want to have any contact with him?
I did not say that or even anything close to that.
I didn't say you DID: it was an extension of what you said, taken to the next stage. However, you modified this:
Even prisoners can still talk to their family and friends.
to:
MOST prisoners are allowed to talk to their family and friends and MOST shunned ex-JWS are not.
I agree: that seems reasonable to me. Cases must be handled on their merits alone, and not on others; circumstances differ.
I guess a restraining order is close to JW shunning, but it is not a perfect parallel, because the person is not cut off from contact of almost all of their family and friends.
Yup. It's safe to conclude that it's power is moreso over JWs who have no Worldly friends/associates or family (even extended relatives). But again: circumstances will differ, so it's hard to predict the effectiveness it'll have on any one individual.
There's MANY who've walked away from their ENTIRE families and a lifetime of JW "friends" simply for the sake of doing what is right, when they knew it was a lie; so if it WERE the powerful perfect manipulative tool, then they wouldn't have been successful. But they HAVE, so it's not some impossible task.
BTW, almost ALL religions practice a form of shunning
We are talking about the way JWs shun in this thread. Almost all religions do NOT practice this form of shunning. only a very few abusive groups do.
Well, the thread title says "shunning in general", which is different from shunning for religious purposes. Of course, all WILL be compared to JWs shunning practices, whatever the topic is.
The history of shunning and social ostracism is interesting: aside from the Hebrews (who also coined the term 'scape-goat'), the ancient Greeks practiced ostracism in the 5th Cent BCE, where a vote was held in a yearly election and someone was sent away from Athens for 10 years for no reason, other than being seen as the gadfly. The practice had no relation to the processes of justice as there was no charge, no defense, and being sent away wasn't a penalty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism
Point being, ostracism is not new: it's a practice from ancient times (as is shunning).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
it's entirely voluntary to be a member
Many are born into it.
True, and unfortunately we are not consulted as to whom our parents will be (you cannot pick your parents), or your life circumstances.
Still, there's many people who've managed to overcome their unfortunate upbringing and circumstances to overcome the BS. They did it; so can others.
Hell, my brother lost HIS entire family to leave the JWs when he was 40. He was gay, and lived his entire life in denial, repressing his feelings (he was even engaged to a JW sister at one point!). He finally manned up to taking responsbility for his own life, and read CoC (he was at Bethel when Franz was there), and he made the right decision.
Not without a price: he lost his only remaining JW family for making the decision, but he died with the satisfaction of FINALLY leading his own life.
(He contracted HIV, and died of AIDS a decade later, after coming out of two closets. He worked with an AIDS hospice many years before he died).
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lisaBObeesa
Look KS, the OP wanted to know what the difference is between him avoiding people out in the world (shunning in general) and disfellowshipping.
My answer showed that there are many, many BIG DIFFERENCES.
Restraining orders, jail, other abusive groups shunning (extremely or otherwise), super bad bad people being shunned, the history of ostracisim, and exceptions to rules don't change the fact that there are many BIG DIFFERENCES between avoiding people because you don't agree with their actions and the way JWs treat people who are disfellowshipped.
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LostGeneration
Others I may say hi to and maybe I'm polite to, but that's about as far as it's going to go.
This is what makes a civil society. Sure you might hate that bastard across the room deep down, but to refuse to say a greeting to someone is just plain childish. Like that is going to MAKE SOMEONE CHANGE their beliefs about GOD?!?!?!? And that is the exact logic used by the GB and their followers.
"Oh, if I stop talking to somebody that will make them realize I am in the one and only true religion on earth today!" And these idiots can't figure out why 70% of the kids leave, and 2/3rds who are DFd never return.
Shunning others is a practice for those with ZERO foundation to their faith. NO WONDER JWS DO IT!
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jws
Being a JW and being told to shun somebody for something and I didn't even know what they did felt wrong. Of course we were all supposed to believe the same way. So if the elders said they did something wrong, we're supposed to trust that we should be offended by that behavior.
Truth is, I wasn't really bothered by most things. There's a big difference between a child molestor or a murderer vs. somebody who smoked a joint or a cigarette. And I didn't really care who was having sex with who as long as nobody was getting hurt or ill-advised pregnancies were happening.
As for in personal life, for the most part, I'd be at least polite to people. Maybe I'm being childish, but there is at least one person I don't even want to so much as talk to. Yes, I'd look right through them as though they're not there. Hopefully I will never see this person in my life again.
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TOTH
Sure I have. from direct shunning to blocking on facebook or even to teh extent of canceling an email address JUST so the person will type a long old retort just to be given a MESSAGE NOT DELIVERABLE report. LOL I feel crummy later and have to apologize.
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wha happened?
What Lisa said. There's big difference for avoiding, even shunning someone, for reasons that you decide in contrast to shunning someone because the elders tell you without you even knowing why.
One is YOUR decision, the other the decision is made for you.
Exactly!
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ziddina
Oooooooo!! What lisabObesa said!!!
"1) If one of those non-jw people that you avoid walked up to you and said 'hi' would you look right through them and keep walking as if they were not even there?
Do you treat these people like they are already dead?
If not, you don't 'disfellowhip' or 'shun' people in the way that JWs do.
And...
2) One person avoiding another person because they don't like their behavior is completely different from a person's entire social group punishing them with extreme collective aggression.
Avoiding someone because you don't like their behavior is not abuse.
Shunning a person the way JW's shun disfellowhsipped people is mental and emotional abuse.
3) Avoiding someone because you don't like their behavior is not trying to blackmail the other person.
JW shunning is for the purpose of trying to blackmail people...it is for the purpose of controlling people...it is for the purpose of making people do what the JWs want them to do. It is saying 'I am going to withhold my love from you until you do what I want.' Totally different from just avoiding a person because you don't like their behavior.
4) avoiding a person because you don't like your behavior is not trying to punish the person.
JW shunning is for the purpose of punishment, as well as blackmail..."
ESPECIALLY that last line!!!