Nebuchadnezzar's accession year in 625 B.C.E

by biometrics 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Biometrics, Most JWs and possibly ALL elders will respond as Finkelstein stated above. To them it's NOT what the Bible says, its what the GB says the Bible says, even if they know they are wrong. This makes it a cult.

    Shalom my friend.

    Jehovah the Father gave us Christ Jesus to over come Satan, sin and death. If we have accepted the Son, and want a new life, we are on the way to changing the Adamic nature to Christ's nature, as that salvation is worked out in us. No Jewish law or legalistic religion can change our nature, it's a spiritual work of God. This enables us, as the power to salvation, to love our Father with heart soul and mind in surrender to Christs righteous and his shared union with us, and love our neighbour as ourselves.

    Shalom my friend.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Pterist and others,

    Do you really think that the issue of 607 BCE is the only broken link in this chain?

    I am speaking as someone who initially had paid little attention to all this - until my ex insisted on returning and a couple of people armed with a pamphlet started trying to convince me that Jehovah had destroyed Babylon via Cyrus, citing arguments out of Isaiah. I repeat, I hardly knew anything of this other than a passing knowledge that Babylon was NOT destroyed from abundant historical evidence of secular writers sitting on my shelfs who were witness to later events there, or access to historians that gave a passing account of Mesopotamian history.

    ut even as these parties of Elders and understudies spoke, their text and their claims appeared to be the ravings of utter loons.

    The more I investigated, the worse it got.

    They convinced me that they were not only crazy but LIARS and their publications were hoaxes with lies on every page.

    If you want to see a genuine instance of BABYLON GETTING DESTROYED, I refer you to devastation wrought by the Assyrian King Sennacherib in 689 BC. If you read Isaiah chapter 14:22-23, it refers to the destruction turning Babylon into a SWAMP, a place where hedgehogs would range, paraphrasing Sennacherib's own accounts written in stone.

    And that is what actually happened in Isaiah's timel, near the end of his life in King Manesseh's reign. Sennacherib pulverized Babylon, destroyed its temples and carried off its inhabitants into slavery, presumably construction work on Nineveh. He flooded it for good measure.

    Cuneiform tablets also record that Sennacherib had the priests of Marduk condemn Babylon to 70 years of desolation.

    It was Esarhaddon, his son ( and perhaps co-conspirator in Sennacherib's murder) that rescinded the decree by having the 70 year sentence read upside down. In Akkadian, the 70 years turns to 11. See the Blackstone of Esarhaddon. The Assyrians considered Sennacherib's act sacrilege and Esarhaddon repaired the damage.

    Cyrus did nothing like this - as my post above explained. Some Chaldean successions were more bloody - and some later rebellions to Persian rule had more strife on the city streets. The stories of 689 and 539 are conflated. Babylon destroyed in 689 could not be punishment for events that occurred 100 years later in Jerusalem - unless reasoning about this is more circular about inerrancy than I've discovered to be already.

    Since Ezra contradicts Jeremiah and Isaiah has been distorted into a prediction of an event which had happened 150 years earlier - and Daniel reads like he never read Isaiah by inventing a whole new sequence of events, I would say that many other "incontrovertible" deterministic narratives can be layed out, depending on which inerrant account you want to ignore this week or this Elder visit.

    In fact, that's what American off-shoots of Calvinism have done for the last four hundred years, mostly in attempts to erase the boards and make every human endeavor illegitimate since shortly after Christ's death and until they arrive gloriously on the scene.

    But the outfit we're discussing, it has led people into a remarkably cruel cul-de-sac.

    You have to decide for yourself which is worse: facing some truly disturbing inconsistencies in Biblical stories or weaving ever more elaborate alibis for beliefs that are more evil than staring in awe at the emperor's new clothes.

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Kepler **** Do you really think that the issue of 607 BCE is the only broken link in this chain?****

    Its the main issue that the WTBS uses in its erroneous end time date setting escathology of Christ's return that selects THEM as the ONLY channel that God will use. If the calculations are wrong, then they have no foundation for their authority and claims. Their whole existence hinges on the dates been correct. I believe this is the topic that is in discussion.

    On th other hand if you mean that the whole Bible is all error, then that's another issue. You are free to decide on that.

    Truth is revealed in God's Messiah that changes our Adamic nature to his divine nature. Biblical facts or Biblical inconsistencies are inevitably, a changed life is a witness that the Father's word are reliable as follows:

    1 John 5:9-13

    New International Version (NIV)

    9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    Shalom friend.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    a couple of people armed with a pamphlet started trying to convince me that Jehovah had destroyed Babylon via Cyrus, citing arguments out of Isaiah.

    Then they worded it badly ... or hadn't been paying attention (... or perhaps you misunderstood?). The WTS does not, and to my knowledge never did, teach that Babylon was destroyed in 539 BC. Cyrus conquered Babylon, but the WTS acknowledge that Babylon's 'destruction' (in reality a fading out) occurred many centuries later.

    This is probably what they (or you) were thinking of:

    Creator (1998) chap. 7 pp. 106-107 What Can You Learn About the Creator From a Book?

    " ... She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation." (Isaiah 13:19, 20; chapter 47) How did things actually work out?

    The facts are that Babylon had long depended on a complex irrigation system of dams and canals between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It appears that about 140 B.C.E. this water system was damaged in the destructive Parthian conquest and basically collapsed. With what effect? The Encyclopedia Americana explains: "The soil became saturated with mineral salts, and a crust of alkali formed over the surface, making agricultural use impossible." Some 200 years later, Babylon was still a populous city, but it did not remain such for much longer. (Compare 1 Peter 5:13.) By the third century C.E., the historian Dio Cassius (c.150-235 C.E.) described a visitor to Babylon as finding nothing but "mounds and stones and ruins." (LXVIII, 30) Significantly, by this time Isaiah had been dead and his complete book in circulation for centuries. And if you visited Babylon today, you would see mere ruins of that once-glorious city. Though ancient cities such as Rome, Jerusalem, and Athens have survived down to our day, Babylon is desolate, uninhabited, a ruin; it is just as Isaiah foretold. The prediction came true.

    Just quickly to add: you're absolutely right about the Assyrians' destruction of Babylon in the 7th century BC and this indeed seems to be what the earlier chapters of Isaiah must have been referring to.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    kepler....The interesting thing about that is the Assyrian destruction of Babylon is alluded to in the "seventy years" oracle on Tyre in Isaiah 23. The Society interprets this as pertaining to the period of Babylonian supremacy, but this cannot be the case because Babylon has already been destroyed by Assyria: "See the land of the Chaldeans! This is the people who no longer exist. Assyria assigned her to the wild beasts. They raised their siege towers, they stripped her citadels, making her a ruin" (v. 13). The Tyre oracle thus pertains to the prophet Isaiah's own time in the early seventh century BC, following Sennacherib's destruction of Babylon in 703 BC, Sennacherib's invasion of Judah in 701 BC (ch. 22, the preceding chapter), and the fall of Sidon and Tyre to Sennacherib in the same year (after which they were vassals to Assyria). The more devastating conquest of Tyre however occurred in 677 BC by Esarhaddon, which effectively put an end to Tyre as a center of trade for much of the seventh century BC. The other interesting thing is the conditional nature of the "seventy years" prophecy for Babylon's destruction, when the seventy years were rescinded by Esarhaddon:

    "Marduk was furious. He devised evil plans to devastate the land, to eliminate its people. From the Arahtu canal, mighty in high water, the likeness of a devastating flood swept over the city of his dwelling, his chapel, and brought it to ruin. Gods and goddesses who lived there returned to heaven. The people who lived there were forced by the horde into slavery. Seventy years, the allotment for its abandonment, is what he wrote, but compassionate Marduk quickly relented and turned it upside down [the cuneiform symbol for "70" when turned upside down is the symbol for "11"]. He declared that it would be inhabited in eleven years" (Black Stone Inscription).

    This might be an ex eventu prophecy, but the idea here certainly is that prophecy is conditional and the deity may relent and have a change of heart. Jeremiah himself shared this view; he noted that Micah had made predictions about the destruction of Jerusalem which did not come to pass, and since he was not executed as a false prophet, Yahweh must have had a change of heart and relented from his announced destruction of the city (Jeremiah 26:3-19). It is therefore strange that Jeremiah's own prophecy of seventy years is used as a chronological datum by some, rather than recognized as a prediction that does not necessarily represent what later transpired. (Jeremiah did indeed prophecy that Babylon would be destroyed after the seventy years)

    The case with Daniel is also interesting. The expectation of Jeremiah was that the Medes would destroy Babylon (Jeremiah 51:11, 27-29; cf. Isaiah 13:17, 21:2), which was a reasonable expectation since the Medes were Babylon's partners in conquering Assyria and constituted a power rivalling that of Babylon. What actually happened however was that in 549 BC the Median empire came to an end with the fall of Ecbatana. It was a Persian, Cyrus, the conquerer of the Medes, who ended up conquering Babylon in 539 BC. So the Aramaic apocalypse of Daniel essentially inserts a Median empire ruled by "Darius the Mede" between the reigns of Belshazzar and "Cyrus the Persian". Thus Babylon does not fall to Cyrus in this view of history but his supposed predecessor, a Mede. I know that some have identified this Darius with various historical personages who might have inspired this character (such as Ugbaru, who led the campaign against Babylon and who had authority there afterward while being subject to Cyrus), but the simple fact is that the author construes this Darius as an absolute monarch ruling over a vast empire of 120 satrapies, whose reign was followed by that of Cyrus (6:28, cf. the wording in the LXX: "King Darius was gathered to his fathers and Cyrus the Persian succeeded to his kingdom"). This is a major problem with the book's historicity and it's just not what someone who actually lived through the period would write (and in fact, it was Darius Hystaspes, who reigned some time after Cyrus, who organized his kingdom in this fashion). The author got some things kind of right; Cyrus did indeed succeed a Median empire. But this succession did not occur after the fall of Babylon; it occurred quite some time beforehand. The interesting thing here is that the author in ch. 7 utilizes the familiar four-kingdom schema of history. The final fourth kingdom is clearly that of Greece (despite what later writers thought); the last king of this kingdom, the "little horn" who persecutes the Jews, is identified in ch. 8 as a king of Greece (i.e. Antiochus IV Epiphanes). The familiar four kingdom schema in the Hellenistic period was as follows: Assyria → Media → Persia → Greece. This appears for instance in the third Sybilline oracle, and reflects a Persian view of history: the Medes conquered Assyria in 612-609 BC under Cyaxares, then the Persians conquered Media in 550-549 BC under Cyrus, then the Greeks conquered Persia in 333-330 BC under Alexander the Great of Macedon. The Aramaic author(s) of Daniel essentially took a Jewish view of history and replaced "Assyria" with "Babylon"; now Babylon was the first kingdom in the series. This is quite clear from ch. 4 when Nebuchadnezzar is presented as the supreme ruler of the entire world. But this is not what historically happened. Nebuchadnezzar's empire co-existed with the Median empire, and in fact the latter was somewhat larger after Cyaxares' conquest of Lydia in 585 BC (just two years after Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Judah). So the narrative in ch 4-6 basically presents the transition from the Babylonian to the Median empires as occurring at the fall of Babylon (involving "King Belshazzar", Nabonidus the actual king on the throne is nowhere mentioned), thereby requiring a Mede who rules as absolute monarch prior to Cyrus. At the same time there is an awareness of the historical situation that the Medes and Persians were combined peoples, with Belshazzar's kingdom being handed over to the Medes and Persians (5:28). The four-kingdom scheme in ch. 2 could be interpreted in a manner more in line with history. There Babylon is the first member of the series, but Daniel essentially identifies the gold head as Nebuchadnezzar himself: "Y ou, Your Majesty, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given kingship, power, might, and glory to you.... You are the gold head" (v. 37-38). So it is possible that here the Median empire follows not the fall of Babylon (as it is in ch. 4-6), but the death of Nebuchadnezzar. That accords much better with history. The Neo-Babylonian empire weakened considerably in the chaotic reigns of Amel-Marduk, Neriglissar, and Labashi-Marduk, and it was increasingly on the defense from the threat posed by Media. Certainly of the two empires, Media was the dominant power in the period after Nebuchadnezzar (and, in fact, even during Nebuchadnezzar's reign itself). Then after 550 BC, Persia replaced Media as the empire of the region. This conceptionalization however does not agree with the narrative in ch. 4-6. There is some textual evidence though from the LXX OG that ch. 4-6 represents a unit of possibly distinct origins from ch. 2 and 7.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    I'll put in in simpler terms, the scribes who wrote the words in the bible bullshitted .

    They were more concerned about creating relevance toward the god they worshiped (YHWH)

    Everything they said ( YHWH ) did concerning the Israelites effecting them such as captivity to Babylon ,

    the eventual overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus, all purposely done by their god (YHWH), was to intensionally

    create relevant power of and about their god.

    The WTS. had a real problem on their hands for they had for decades even prior to 1914, said that this year

    was of great significance. 1914 had to be again be supported, particularly when it became realized that a great amount of the IBSA members

    broke away after Rutherford took over the reins. So they went about devising a calculation that would support their old 1914 doctrine.

    What they did is move the date of the release of the captives in Babylon to 537 a year latter after the Decree of Cyrus in 538,

    there is no information supporting 537. Then used the said prophecy of Daniel of 70 years of captivity and arrived at 607 BCE.

    Then from there they state that this was the year of destruction of sacred temple which existed in Jerusalem.

    The WTS, has never openly admitted or recognizing that it was the year 586 BCE. of the final destruction of the temple.

    So there you have it, a compilation of bullshit from men who had their own specific personal agendas.

    The bible scribes wanted to create a semblance of power and relevance to their god which in this case was YHWH,

    just as other ancient civilizations had done concerning their own select god or gods.

    And manipulative book selling charlatans who devised their own doctrines to attract attention to themselves and their published goods.

    The honest and real truth !

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The other main point that the WTS. totally disregards is the the gradual start of captivity of Jerusalem's citizens to Babylon,

    which can a approximately calculated by using the bible at 605 BCE., gradually segmented to the finally destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BCE.

    You have the use of bible's own chronological dating of Kings in Jerusalem, as well the accession of kings of Jerusalem approximating that time,

    cumulating up to the destruction of the temple and Babylon's own accession of Kings as well .

    The WTS. has intensionally and very selectively demeaned archaeological evidence, because it does support to a greater extent the final

    destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as being 586 BCE., any wonder why since this breaks down their own self embellished 1914 doctrine.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The other main point that the WTS. totally disregards is the the gradual start of captivity of Jerusalem's citizens to Babylon, which can a approximately calculated by using the bible at 605 BCE., gradually segmented to the finally destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BCE.

    And even then there were still people sent into exile from Judah several years later (Jeremiah 52):

    This is the number of the people Nebuchadnezzar carried into exile:

    in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews;

    29 in Nebuchadnezzar’s eighteenth year,

    832 people from Jerusalem;

    30 in his twenty-third year,

    745 Jews taken into exile by Nebuzaradan the commander of the imperial guard.

    There were 4,600 people in all.

    The idea that Judah was wholly devastated when Jerusalem was destroyed, with the land emptied of people, is a fiction. And clearly, the Babylonian Exile began many years PRIOR to the destruction of Jerusalem.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    The Watchtower has been very quiet on that one.

    The Insight book just speculates that the 745 were refugees that were found elseware.

    Later Exiles of Jews. About three years later, in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, more Jews were taken into exile. (Jer 52:30) This exile probably involved Jews who had fled to lands that were later conquered by the Babylonians. Lending support to this conclusion is the statement of the historian Josephus: “In the fifth year after the sacking of Jerusalem, which was the twenty-third year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar marched against Coele-Syria and, after occupying it, made war both on the Moabites and the Ammanites. Then, after making these nations subject to him, he invaded Egypt in order to subdue it.”—Jewish Antiquities, X, 181, 182 (ix, 7).

    He gave a speech about how my eternal salvation depends on my attitude toward the governing body.
    Then he talked about the 'slave class' giving food at the propper time. I asked him about the logistics of the global anointed 144,000 still on earth providing that food. He agreed that only the GB provide that food, and even then they don't actually write the articles, they just give orders, and approve articles.

    These are distractions. He will bring them up to get away from having to confront his ignorance on a subject and he will be grateful for any you bring up too. If he is looking for excuses not to discuss a subject, you already have the right subject. Don't give him the luxury of being able to choose one he is more comfortable with.

    Act like genuinely interested potential baptism material to keep him on the hook, but make sure he gets the message that you don't take kindly to trickery if you catch him out.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The statement in Josephus is interesting but it is of doubtful historicity. It claims that Nebuchadnezzar invaded Egypt in his 23rd year (582 BC) and Egypt's king (Apries) died in battle. In reality, Nebuchadnezzar's army was besieging Tyre in 582 BC and he did not invade Egypt until his 37th year when the siege was over (567 BC), and the deposed Apries fought on the same side as Nebuchadnezzar against the usurper Amasis (who continued to reign over Egypt for the rest of the Neo-Babylonian era and into the Achaemenid period). So it seems that Josephus' statement was an inference made from Jeremiah's prophecies (particularly what is found in Jeremiah 43:10-11, 44:30, 48:1-47, 49:1-22, 52:28-30). Indeed the statement occurs within an extended paraphrase of Jeremiah ch. 40-44. It is still possible however that there is some independent information that Josephus was drawing on. Many scholars believe that the deportation of exiles in 582 BC was a consequence of the anti-Babylonian rebellion that culminated in the assassination of Gedaliah, who managed the farming population that continued to work the fields of Judah (particularly in Benjamin) following the fall of Jerusalem (cf. 2 Kings 25:22, Jeremiah 40:6-7, 10-12). Dating the assassination to 582 BC gives a much more plausible account of the events leading up to the assassination, rather than the alternative which squeezes everything into the two months that followed the destruction of the Temple (see Doug Mason's discussion of this), and it gives historical context to a major exiling of Jews in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year as a reprisal against the anti-Babylonian rebellion. Josephus' statement about a campaign against the Moabites and Ammonites fits well in this context, as in fact the Ammonite king was behind the murder of Gedaliah (Jeremiah 40:14, 41:15). Although the Society wants to claim that Gedaliah was killed just a few months after Jerusalem fell and the land emptied of all Jews immediately afterward, the exiling of Jews in the 23rd year indicates otherwise (cf. also Ezekiel 33:21-27 which implies that there were Jews still living in Judah after the time the Society claims Gedaliah was killed).

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