A question for active or recent Elders about apostate judicial meetings...

by EndofMysteries 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  EndofMysteries

  In the Shepherd the Flock book, I did not really notice a protocol for how they judge and go about w/ apostates or those suspected. I was wondering if there was a seperate letter or word of mouth instruction on that.

  Mainly.......are they told to not let the accused talk about their reasons and get into much detail, or at some point to not talk or listen to them at all, etc.

  If a person has put together and wants to discuss scriptures and things from articles, all WT stuff, and ask questions, anything that would prevent that from happening?

  To help family I am thinking of going to some that seemed pretty sincere when I was in, and wanting to know what to expect in regards to how they are trained. Will I get a few hours to discuss things or is there a point where they must stop, not listen and bottom line do you believe in GB or not, if not then you get dfed, etc.

  So any recent ex or current elder can you shed some light on this.
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  EndofMysteries

  This will help everybody who is going to go to one whether volunteer or called, or just want to try to discuss anything with elders. Nice ones may be friends with may listen and try to help. But again I personally do not know if they have been given orders and specific instructions on cases with ones who do not believe and start going by scriptures and WT material.
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  braincleaned

  I haven't been DFed, as I am a fader (too keep my family united).
  
  However, I did call in the elders to ask hard questions, and they listened to me respecfully. I even had the special visit of the CO, who after a while just looked at me and said "you're too quick - I can't answer." He was kind and polite - although I saw him worried. These were not trick-questions - but deep context-related concerns, that were clearly shaking my faith in everything. I know my Bible very well; personal study was my favorite (still is).
  
  I felt a lot of love, and some discreet frustration from their part for not being able to counter these logical questions, all of them just refering to the Bible. (At that time, I had still refused to look at anything online that could be considered apostate).
  
  After a considerable time, they came back to see where I was spiritually. They admitted to me that they were afraid I may be turning apostate - and I knew these brothers well, as good friends. I told them I was suspending my questionning for the time being, just to reassure them. They prayed for me, and that was the last time I saw them, as I moved cross-country. The rest is history, and I'm now a happy atheist - still needing some closure from the Organisation that fooled me for so long.
  
  So, I think the 'judgement' of a supposed apostate is up to the discretion of the elders. To me it was clear the protocol was rather flexible.
  
  Believe me, my questions were bathing in the taboos of the Society. I guess everybody has a different experience...
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  Phizzy

  See Raypublishers JC online, that will tell you how it will go , even if not a JC, just a"discussion", they will still nail you if they can.

  Are you happy to be DF/Da'd ? If so fine, if not ,tread very carefully, if you answer the "loyalty" question wrongly, you are toast.
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  Witness My Fury

  You mileage will vary in that not all elders, bodies, congregations, area, countries etc are the same.

  Some will go strictly by the book, others will go with their gut, others will have an agenda of their own (internal politics, previous dealings with the person, trying to appear unbiased by being extra harsh, etc etc)

  Generally you are wasting your time, mind and efforts on trying to make them SEE anything, so do not go into this expecting any good outcomes.
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  dozy

  WMF nailed it above. A lot depends on the elders. In actuality , "apostate" cases are still pretty rare - I was an elder for 15 years & we never had any apostate JCs ( just numerous immorality ones. )

  There isn't a protocol as such - I guess it would only be if someone became known as widely being critical of the WTBTS then the elders would assign two elders to have a chat with them. Depending on the results of this chat & depending on the attitude of the elders ( if they are hardline or pretty laid back ) matters would end there or escalate.

  We had a MS who suddenly drifted away & a family member complained that they talking about paedophilia in the truth , negative about the FADS etc. Most of us were pretty reticent about getting involved but one particular elder wanted things sorted out and we decided to let him go with another elder & chat to this guy. By all accounts he pretty much flat batted away any questions so there wasn't much else that we could do and the family member was told that a meeting had taken place and the elders were "dealing with it" which pacified her to an extent. A few months later he got himself a worldly GF but by then we took the view that he was no longer regarded as a JW in the community so no action was taken.

  Unless you are "brazen" about your views or do something pretty over the top ( like attending a church ) then most elders will leave you alone. I certainly wouldn't recommend discussing with the elders any research you have done - they will have no interest whatsoever in the material & all they will want to know is where you got it from. If you disclose that you have been on "apostate" sites online or reading Franz's books then most elders would feel obligated to act.
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  outsmartthesystem

  "Mainly.......are they told to not let the accused talk about their reasons and get into much detail, or at some point to not talk or listen to them at all, etc. "

  Bingo. I just went through my JC hearing 3 weeks ago (for "apostasy from the organization"). I had oodles of printed organization literature citing contradictions, lies, quotes out of context, examples of propaganda (that they themselves defined in the June 22, 2000 Awake) etc. I had questions about 607, the disfellowshipping doctrine, definitions of Greek words that are sometimes flip flopped to suit the argument they are trying to make. The point being......I had ZERO apostate literature. All of the literature.....the problems.....and the questions I had were coming straight from society based publications. Well....the ringleader of the group cut me off and told me that they have no intention of listening to "foolish questions".

  Let me put it to you this way. If you are a publisher in good standing.....you can ask a few questions. They will hand you some pre-printed drivel and expect that you'll accept it as proper food. If you do not accept it .......or if it doesn't answer your questions....or even if it develops MORE questions......NOW you have a target on your back. Once they form a JC for you for not blindly accepting the GB's direction.....you've already been labeled and they are told by the powers that be that under no circumstances should they listen to or answer your questions. They are told that you are evil and are only trying to shake their faith. Basically they are told to bury their heads in the sand as quickly as possible and get you the hell out of the congregation before you influence others with your brazen conduct of wanting to know real answers.
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  outsmartthesystem

  Trust me. Once they get the feeling like you no longer believe that the GB is directed by God (whether that is before or DURING your hearing) they will cut off all questions and the focus will turn to getting you to admit you don't believe that this is Jehovah's organization.
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  EndofMysteries

  hmm........well I think if there isn't a strong policy in force yet, it will change soon. Very soon there will be a rise with the spread of true knowledge and it will become in the GB's mind dangerous for elders to even have judicial committees or let the so called apostate or questioner have a chance to get the elders to think with the very valid reasons for questioning.

  There are two things that may happen in as quickly as a few months to a year. It's already starting and that's why the increase in those who think they are annointed and the recent GB change on the slave.

  A. MAJOR increase in true bible knowledge combined with the true history and happenings of the WT when put together correctly will make any apostate judicial committee a danger because elders will be unable to keep a blind eye on them, if this happens almost coordinated or a wave, quickly, it 'could' possibly awaken moving up the chain, elders, circuit overseers, etc, and in a best case scenario if it gets to some pure hearted ones high up who are just disillusioned, cause some major positive changes.

  B. If not fast enough or those who are WILLFULLY and in full knowledge causing the evil, will see this coming, so will do a preemptive strike w/ major changes to try to prevent this. They have begun that w/ the new light on only the GB being the faithful slave.

  I really wish the GB were just disillusioned, that deep down all up there were good people doing what they felt was right, because things would be for sure about to change for the better. But there are willful and malicious ones, no idea if all or just the ones really pulling the strings.

  On my end, with my project here is a progress report, when I put that video together and it didn't go through and I noticed a few things and had to rethink what to share and such, all of that is done. I am right now building a website, it will have video clips and text information. 1 video only or just video would not be good enough, so will have many scriptures and sources listed as text to go with them, to help out and make it easier and more organized.

  Again I want to make it clear, I am not seeking followers, I am not seeking money. Front start to finish the true God in the bible wants people to put trust and faith in him. Ancient Israel being given a king was they demanded it, and it wasn't best for them, he allowed it and gave in, but human king's can go bad and many did. Jesus, the apostles, etc, the whole bible people, true ones weren't supposed to have human leaders. So I am only trying to help, to clear up some things, so the goal is revealing the truth of God and the truth in the bible, which hopefully will give everyone much needed answers and help start a solid true foundation, and be FREE. Jesus said the truth will set you FREE.

  It's the false brothers who even in the early christians, even when all the apostles were still alive who kept sneaking in to ENSLAVE everyone. It happened. And with Russell, in the beginning all were free, but within 20 years or so, enslaving began. So anyway I'm moving along now. I was too rushed when doing that initial video and I am doing it all the right way now. No promise on the day the site to be published, and it won't be fully complete, it will always be a work in progress, but the real important stuff together when published, my eta is before years end, which isn't much time. I am going as quick as I can because I feel on several areas there is a short span of time where much good can be done before it's too late, (like the GB issue).
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  redvip2000

  The path of a JC committee for apostasy is predictable actually. It always inevitably reaches a fork on the road within minutes of starting, where it can go in two directions.

  The first path is if you play the humble sheep, and say that you " had temporary questions because you read some apostate literature, but have prayed and now realize again that the Watchtower is God's organization". They will then "slap" you around a bit and warn you to keep away from the "devils table". In this situation, the JC will be short and you will get a small slap on the wrist and be on your way.

  Second path is when you start asking hard questions and you bring materials exposing the WT as a scam. Once they realize that you are there in "confrontational mode", the entire focus of the panel is simply to gather enough evidence to support disfellowshipping. So a barrage of questions will come your way always around the subject of the legitimacy of the faithfull and discreet slave. They will not stop questioning you on it, untill they are satisfied that you have admitted that you don't believe the GB is the FDS at which point they will dismiss you.