Thank you all.
Leo, I had no idea there were "other concepts" of how sin originated. Have some reading to do now with your (always pointed and helpful) references.
The Introduction of Sin (concept)?
by Yan Bibiyan 17 Replies latest watchtower bible
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james_woods
Wasn't the mythical "first wife" of Adam (Lilith) an invention of Jewish mysticism with connections to original sin?
I heard the notion that she might have been viewed as the true originator of sin because she would not follow Adam's lead - and that she later became a sort of underworld queen of darkness in legion with Satan (or the Serpent).
I have always pictured her as looking something like Catherine Zeta-Jones.
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Larsinger58
"My point is, this is constructed through interpretation and goes beyond what Genesis actually says; there is no Satan, no notion of a perfect angel turning bad, etc. in the Eden narrative."
Huh? In Genesis, the "woman and her seed" is a reference to Satan and his/her followers. Note in esoteric Christian art, Satan is always represented as a snake-woman! So definitely the rebellion of Satan is noted from the beginning. But this, as you note, is also determined upon "interpretation." If you don't interpret Satan and his followers as being the "woman and her seed" then you don't presume Satan is referenced in Genesis. But most, specifically, JWs consider God's pronouncement about the bruising of the head of the serpent to be a reference to Satan's head being bruised by Christ. In fact, many Christian sects likewise consider this a clear reference to Satan. So I don't understand how Satan is absent from the Genesis scenario. ?? He clearly is.
LS
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Larsinger58
Wow, this is such a wonderfully intellectual topic. But here goes.
Imagine heaven is much like a scene out of Walt Disney's "Fantasia", where the angels in heaven are all cute little, playful pixie-like creatures flying around and having fun in a beautiful green forest. Under that scenario there is no SIN. There is no sin because there rae no LAWS to be broken.
Thus Satan's hint at "rebellion" was only talk. Heaven was first just like being in a cell where you can threaten and talk but couldn't do anything.Thus SIN is linked with the physical universe where an actual ACT can be carried out--where you can "put your money where you mouth is" and in so doing, you could then COMMIT a SIN and then be punished for it. Thus the reason for the physical universe and mankind, a physical creature made in "God's image" that is, having free agency and moral choice, but also with LAWS to abide by, the breaking of those laws being SIN with the punishment of death.
So in the long shot, the entire Edenic scenario was designed to call Satan's bluff, which was the evil concept of wanting to murder a lesser creature that God had made in his own image, those being mankind. Thus the true test was not for Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, but for Satan to get them to sin and thus sin himself by complicity bringing upon himself the penalty of death. Thus mankind and the scenario of Eden where Satan could technically kill off billions of innocent humans was a trap for Satan to act out his evil heart and actually commit a sin and then be condemned to death.
It was a high price to pay for mankind, but then God stepped in with the "ransom sacrifice" that basically nullified Satan's attempt to kill off Adam's children. In the end, Adam's children who end up being cast into the lake of fire would have essentially been cast into the lake of fire anyway based on their own choices. Remember, 1/3 of the angels who knew God rebelled against him.
EVEN so, the "legal case" does not every really come to trial. All that is skipped by God exercising his RIGHT as creator to limit the lifespan of his creatures. So actually, God decides to throw out the baby with the bathwater but only because he can run and get the baby and resuscitate the baby after the fact. That is, God basically said, "OK, to get rid of Satan, i'm just going to kill off everybody, including the faithful angels and Jesus Christ! How's that? But after everybody is dead, I'll resurrect my favorites and give them eternal life. Is that okay?" The faithful angels and Jesus Christ said, "Sure!" That way, Jehovah doesn't have to argue any moral points in regards to SIN. SIN is thus sometime that is subjective, that Jehovah decides to apply or not to apply. So this is a slap in the face of Satan.
That is underscored now wherein for this special period, the time of being "sealed" into the kingdom until the millennium begins, God removes the LAW from certain ones of the elect, thus they are no longer under LAW and thus cannot sin. Case in point, I'm of the sealed elect and no longer under Law and so I can go out and fornicate as much as I want to with any willing partners and will not be charged with any sin. The genius of this is that Satan, who targets the elect, can no longer tempt us during this short period of time from our anointing and sealing until the millenniuim begins. What can he tempt us with? A beautiful woman? It's not a sin to have sex with someone you're not married to so where's the temptation?
So that goes back to the original purpose of the LAW and SIN, and that was to create a scenario where Satan or an angel in heaven who had bad THOUGHTS and evil intent could put their money where their mouth was and give them an opportunity to carry out what evil was in their heart. However, just having evil motive is not technically a SIN. A SIN is linked to the commission of an act against which there is a specific LAW with a specific penalty.
Only Jehovah tricked Satan. Had Satan known the death of mankind he was carrying out would only be temporary, would he have bothered to seduce Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, knowing Adam would cave if he saw his wife was to die for eating it? Thus we learn something about the penalty of DEATH. DEATH and its bitter sting are only devastating when it is permanent. Temporary death isn't the same as permanent death.
Thus Jehovah causes all in heaven to die once, thus cleansing the heavens of all "evil." Then he resurrects the ones he wants to live forever in a world without Satan without looking back.
This was all set to take place over a 7000-year period. That's why the foreskin is removed on the 8th day, to represent Satan, who covers the head of mankind like the foreskin, will be removed by the 8th Creative Day. That is, Satan is cast into the lake of fire before the 8th Creative Day begins.
After that, FREE WILL will be taken away from every living creature. But after one has made the ultimate choice, there is no need for free will. You will still be happy because you made that choice yourself when you did have free will. Since you will not change your mind, what do you need free will for?
:>
Great discussion! Someone is thinking about the big picture and that's great!
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Yan Bibiyan
That is, God basically said, "OK, to get rid of Satan, i'm just going to kill off everybody, including the faithful angels and Jesus Christ! How's that? But after everybody is dead, I'll resurrect my favorites and give them eternal life. Is that okay?" The faithful angels and Jesus Christ said, "Sure!" That way, Jehovah doesn't have to argue any moral points in regards to SIN. SIN is thus sometime that is subjective, that Jehovah decides to apply or not to apply. So this is a slap in the face of Satan.
...and he couldn't just kill Satan because?
Hey, if the faithful angels and JC were ok with being killed, what abot the rest of us, huh? I never, EVER said OK, kill me.
"a slap in the face of Satan" WTF?! A slap in the face of humanity moreso....Why is god more concerned anout Satan's feelings?
Dude, this is some messed up reasoning....
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ziddina
Bumping this thread and hoping that lars leaves it on-track this time...
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prologos
I got it somewhere that the word-hence concept of sin comes from the root "sund" or "sound of" xyz (geography). so sin is a seperation, a braking away
The existance of the tree of knowledge showed that it was an offered choice. "--murderer, father of the lie-original serpent" links A&E story to satan the spirit realm. Was there a heavenly equivalent to the TOK? but the continetal drift started with a hairline crack too.
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designs
When did humans first begin to punish and reward behavior.