I've been thinking the Bible isn't legitimate--long indoor mat-rant (page 4)

jamiebowers

I suppose I'm still evolving without even being conscious of it.

Welcome to the world without mind control!

Apognophos

@elderelite: Yes, and after you've awoken, you have to do battle with the robots you've turned against.

@sd-7: I know quite well the fear that leaving behind belief in the Bible will be like the floor dropping out from under you, morals-wise. But then I realized that, since I haven't felt like God ever helped me in the first place to be a good person despite all my praying, then any good things I've done up till now were coming from me. True, perhaps my motivation before was to please (or not to displease) God, and now it's down to what morals I wish to maintain for my own reasons, but any lifestyle I led before, I can still lead on my own now. The Devil is not going to enter me and make me start doing drugs or kicking puppies. I resisted most bad inclinations on my own all along, and the areas where I "fell short" of Watchtower teachings (ahem, porn) no longer need to plague me because I can honestly say that looking at porn never hurt anyone. Heck, now that I'm setting my own standards, I can even choose to be stricter than Witnesses in some way if my conscience compels me -- or at least I can attempt to (just as Witnesses can only attempt to live up to their own standards). Realizing that was liberating for me.

sd-7

I don't think you can be sure about anything regarding God unless he tells you. Are you sure he started from scratch?

The first sentence here sums it all up in a nutshell. God hasn't told me anything. Therefore, by that reasoning, I can conclude that I know literally nothing about God at all, because he has never said one word to me in 30 years of life. This is sort of the point Thomas Paine made in 'The Age of Reason' about revelation always being secondhand unless you receive it yourself--hence, why we can't be certain of anything in the Bible, since it wasn't actually said to us, it was said to someone else--and maybe even said to someone else who then said it to someone else after that.

The second sentence, well, to that I say, are you sure he didn't? How do you know? Did he tell you he didn't start from scratch? Do you hear his voice telling you, "Ucantnome, I didn't start from scratch"? My question is just as valid as yours. And both are unprovable and undisprovable, because we have nothing to go on as far as (a) definitive proof of the existence of God and (b) the methods that God used, assuming he exists, to create the universe. We have the effect, that we're all here, that the universe is here, but the cause could be one of potentially an infinite number of possibilities, one of them being God created it all. We know something caused it all, but we don't know that it was Someone.

And even if we did know that God created it all, more questions come up. Which God? What was his name? We don't even know how to pronounce the Hebrew God's name for sure. I feel a quickmeme coming on: MADE THE WHOLE UNIVERSE. NOBODY CAN PRONOUNCE HIS NAME. And what kind of father doesn't sit down and have a conversation with his own children, to tell them everything? The being who presumably made everything down to a microscopic level can't explain his name and plans clearly to mankind? It flies in the face of logic.

I'm not per se against the notion of there being a God; I just don't think the Bible is the way to know such a being, assuming he even exists. I mean, if we were all wiped out, a guy could get a copy of 'Clash of the Titans' on DVD and think that Zeus is the true god and make a religion all about it. It's not all that different from what people today are doing--taking ancient records and trying to piece together what they mean, with varying degrees of success.

Epic statement, dude; you should use it as a sig.

I wonder if Plinkett would sue me if I did? He uses it frequently in his movie reviews and it's pretty much become my favorite phrase of all time.

--sd-7

"I didn't notice it, but my brain did."--Plinkett

Ucantnome

So your not sure.

sd-7

So your not sure.

No, I'm not. But since you're on this subject, I'm curious to hear your viewpoint. Do you feel sure about this, that God didn't start from scratch? If so, what proof can you provide? I'm not unwilling to listen to a different opinion.

--sd-7

Yan Bibiyan

sd-7, congratulations!

I see that you have come to the realization where the burden of proof lays. And it ain't with the disbelievers.

From a personal perspective, once I relized that it is not my job to disprove god, it is the job of believers (or even god him/herself) to offer proof, there was an incredible clarity of thought and understanding...

Does it feel similar to discovering TTATT, I wonder?

Yan Bibiyan

The creators of the Torah considered the idea of no God and they concluded that idea to be false, which is why the document exists in the first place.

Sab, I'd call this an argument from ignorance. Replace God with "Allah" and Torah wth "Quran" and see how the argument applies just as well.

We can't explain things, therefore God..

sd-7

Does it feel similar to discovering TTATT, I wonder?

Not really. It's kind of a feeling of, clinging to the pieces of a shipwreck while sitting on dry land. After awhile, you start to realize it makes no sense, you're already safe now and you can let go. It was a fear reflex. I needed to feel safe, like there was still some of the old way to hold onto. It's not so much a relief as just a case of finally finding the square hole for the square peg.

--sd-7

elderelite

i know this is SD's thread but i actually felt like leaving the bible behind was BETTER than leaving the org behind... not sure why but realizing its jewish fairy tales did wonders for me

Ucantnome

It's not like he could do a Google search and find out what a star looks like and then make it. He would've had to start from scratch.

I don't think he done a Google search, but then maybe he did, he knows the future.

I mean, Chapter 1, God Makes Everything. Who is God? Why did he decide to make stuff? If he was eternal, complete, and never got lonely, why did he make everything? Better yet, how could someone who had never seen anything else, ever, make something? How would he know what it looked like? He'd never seen anything else, ever. He didn't have any books, so how did he have wisdom? It's not like he could do a Google search and find out what a star looks like and then make it. He would've had to start from scratch.

How would he know what it looked like? He'd never seen anything else, ever.

I didn't know how you knew this.

I've been thinking the Bible isn't legitimate--long indoor mat-rant

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