by turtleturtle 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Can someone tell me what is meant by Apostates being:
" Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses"
At what point is someone meeting this criteria. For example, if I share with my JW friend that I disagree with a certain stance, is that apostasy? I would think not, since I have known Elders that voiced their disagreement with certain doctrines (e.g. shunning).
Good question!
It is typical of WT "Guidelines", they are no guide whatsoever, it depends on how your very own dear BofE decides to interpret it.
Our very own lovely Granny Grace (Mouthy) was DF'd for not believing in the rubbish 1914 teaching, another poster was not, though he left anyway.
Another person I know had doubts about the existence of God, he was not DF'd and, after some years, went back sadly, a similar one who did not believe there was proof for the Gospel version of Jesus was told that viewpoint was Apostasy and he was going to be DF'd for it.
Anything can be construed by them as going against the blah de blah as taught by JW's, if they cannot get you on that ,they will get you on "causing divisions", if they cannot get you on that they can always get you on "Brazen conduct" if you don't appear to be very very sorry and repentant and lick the Alpa-male Elder's boots, or better still , kiss his arse.
One needs to be so very careful if you are going to fade, or stay in as an under-cover Apostate.
Blimey, its like living in a Cold War Communiist State !
Watch out for the Secret Police ! they employ undercover ones too !
Trust no one !
lol....i think by the official definition i am an apostate.
sometimes i wonder if i have paranoid personality disorder...but then i look at n. korea and i am sure some of the citizens ask themselves the same questions.
Here is a little comparison from the NWT for the words meaning "apostacy":
In the OT, the Hebrew word is hanep (Strong's #26:11). Here are all its occurances:
Job 8:13; 13:16; 15:34; 17:8; 20:5; 27:8; 34:30; 36:13
Psa 35:16
Prv 11:9
Isa 9:17; 10:6; 33:14
Translated "apostate" in the NWT
In the NT, the Greek word is apostasia (Strong's # 646). It occurs in:
Act 21:21
2Th 2:3
Translated "apostacy" in the NWT
Also occurs in LXX at:
2Ch 29:19
Jer 29:32
The Theological Wordbook of the OT (TWOT, p.304) describes the use of the Hebrew word this way:
The adjective denotes a godless man, a man who forgets God (Job 8:13) and lives in opposition to all that is right (Job 17:8; Isa 9:17; 10:6). Of the thirteen times it is used , it appears eight times in Job, emphasizing the action and tragedy of the godless. . . . Association with the godless is a barren experience (Job 15:34). The godless have their pleasures but momentarily (never forever, Job 20:5). The godless should not hold govt. positions lest the people fall into a trap (Job 34:30). The man who forgets the fear of God is godless, a menace to society. He will be judged.
David demonstrates the upside-down character of the godless. Those who had turned against him were likened to the course jesting at godless banqueting tables (Ps 35:16)
Concerning the Greek word, BDAG defines it as:
"defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith.
AMG's Word Study Dictionary defines it as
"Departure, apostacy. . . In Acts 21:21 the new Christian believers among the Jews, having departed from Moses and coming to Jesus Christ, decided that they should stay apart from Moses, i.e. their Judaistic practices . . . In 2 Thess. 2:3 the word apostasia does not refer to genuine Christians who depart from the faith, but mere professors who, without divine grace, succumb to the Satanic deception of the Antichrist."
The New Strong's adds:
"In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels."
By comparison, the WT's use and definition of the word 'apostacy' produces effects like these:
John 7:13; 9:22; 12:42; 19:38; 20:19
The comparison of the WT with a hard line communist society, where speech and thought is highly censored, is quite apt.
i guess im wondering what subjects are considered apostasy, if not agreed upon. for example, if I believe that blood transfusions are a conscience matter and no necessarily a sin...am i apostasizing?
When I wrote a letter to the Elders I was very careful and used only WT quotes. I adressed changing doctrine and the admitted fallibility of the GB. It did not go over well. When the smoke cleared I was not considered an " apostate " but seriously in danger of becoming one. Had I pressed the issue I am sure things would have been different. If 1 year ago I had said that I don't believe in a FDS class or that the Apostles were the FDS....that would probably be considered apostasy. One Elder who is pretty liberal and cool gave me the impression that if I had just not written a letter or expressed my views then nothing would have been done to me. So it seems you can think whatever you want as long as you don't tell anyone, not even your closest friends. In the end you go with the flow of lemmings or you get persecuted.
At what point is someone meeting this criteria.
At the point when 3 elders decide that you have crossed the line.
And, of course, any group of 3 elders will have a different opinion than any other group of 3 elders as to where that "line" is.
That's the diabolical beauty of it. The WTS deliberately leaves it vague so that you are so terrified of where exactly that line is that you don't dare even hint at disagreeing with anything.
For example, if I share with my JW friend that I disagree with a certain stance, is that apostasy?
This would constitute a social infraction as you would be "running ahead" of God's organization. Stating an opinion contrary to the Watchtower is considered sitting in their seat of authority. Just by stating a contrary opinion to what JW's consider "Bible truth", like their claim about 607 and 1914 for instance, you could easily become a suspect for apostasy which is a crime in the world of JW's. If you humbled yourself before their leaders they would forgive the infraction, but if you persisted in speaking about it with fellow members you would be labled a disturber of the peace, a judicial hearing would be formed and you would be expelled from the congregation for apostasy.
-Sab
