Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals

by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Your missing the entire point Ethos .

    The reality is that the start of the captivity to Babylon happened most likely in 605 under Nebuchadnezzar and continued to the final

    invasion (destruction) of Jerusalem in 586 BCE..

    If one subtracts 539 BCE. from 605 BCE. you get 66 years. I think someone wanted to make this time segment symbolic so 70 was used since 7

    was perceived a sacred number to the Israelites.

    You have the bible's own chronology of dates concerning this time/events as well as the many archaeological pieces of evidence to make

    a conclusion that 586 BCE. was indeed the the proper date of the final destruction of Jerusalem.

  • Ethos
    Ethos

    Well why comment and say the arguments are wrong if you are unwilling to argue your case? Imagine if I showed up in a 607 thread and started spouting about how wrong the anti-607 arguments were but proved nothing. I'd be laughed at and looked at as a nonsensical troll who can't substantiate his viewpoint.

    Really...the fitting statement is: "put up or shut up", with all due respect.

    Finkelstein, that is a totally different argument. I have not missed a point about an argument that is not being discussed/analyzed. This is specifically for the 609 to 539 servitude peddlers.

  • castthefirststone
    castthefirststone

    I don't understand your post Ethos. You list 3 scriptures that you call premises. A scripture is not a premise.

    Your analysis of premise 1 starts off by stating the following:

    The premise seems to insinuate that the servitude ended in 539 B.C.E.

    I don't believe that is what the scripture insinuates. The scripture clearly states that a period of 70 years ends when the "king of Babylon" is called to an account. When was an account called against the King of Babylon, two years after the invasion of Babylon?

    Your statement that is quoted states that this scripture insinuates that the servitude ended after this 70 years. Where in Jeremiah 25:12 does it talk about servitude?

  • Ethos
    Ethos

    Let me break it down for you castthefirststone. A premise is defined as " a proposition supporting or helping to support a conclusion." In Londo's 607-thread and Jeffro's blog these scriptures are used as a basis for the conclusion of the beginning and ending time periods for the 70-year servitude. Therefore, scripture or not, they can be said to be 'premises' for their conclusion of 609 to 539 as the period of servitude. If you disagree with their premises regarding the end of the servitude in 539 B.C.E., then there is no argument from my side.

    Your response about the King of Babylon being called into account has been addressed at the bottom of my response to premise 2.

    Jeremiah 25:11 mentions the servitude of 70 years. Verse 12 mentions that he will be called into account after the 70 years. Jeremiah 51 which is a continuation of what was described in verses 12-18, qualify that the calling into account involved the returning of the temple utensils. Simple enough?

    I've already examined your website Jeffro, no need to peddle your blog. Are you going to respond to the points or just talk about how wrong I am without haven proven a thing besides that you can name logical fallacies which you yourself have committed?

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Ethos' approach is similar to the approach of other JW apologists on this matter - take a single point in isolation and conject about how their interpretation might be plausible without considering all of the evidence together.

    Come back when you've finished here and here.

  • castthefirststone
    castthefirststone

    Thanks for clarifying the premise statement, I can see what you are trying to say. You list the three scriptures that are used to support the conclusion that you have at the end of the three scriptures.

    I still don't get the explanation of Jeremiah 25:12 though.

    You said:

    Jeremiah 25:11 mentions the servitude of 70 years. Verse 12 mentions that he will be called into account after the 70 years. Jeremiah 51 which is a continuation of what was described in verses 12-18, qualify that the calling into account involved the returning of the temple utensils. Simple enough?

    You explanation is not "simple enough" and I still don't understand. Where in Jeremiah 51 does it equate the calling into account of the king to the returning of the temple utensils. Please show me the scripture that states that after 70 years is completed the utensils will be brought back to Jerusalem.

    You stated in your response of premise 2 that vengence for the temple is the link. When was the vengence executed? When the king of Babylon was overthrown or when the utensils was returned? If it's when the utensils are returned the how do you explain Jeremiah 28:3?

    Within two full years more I am bringing back to this place all the utensils of the house of Jehovah that Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon took from this place that he might bring them to Babylon.

    It seems to me that this scripture states that the utensils will only be returned after an additional two years after the 70 years as verse 2 mentioned the yoke that the king of Babylon had being broken (this is when the 70 years ends according to Jer 25:12) and then it mentions an additional two years before the utensils will be returned.

  • Ethos
    Ethos

    Quick answer...Jeremiah 28:3 is a false prophecy by Hannaniah. Read verse 1. The connections are there, reread my post carefully. I'll in detail explain the connection in my next post. Have to go to work now. Good night.

  • castthefirststone
    castthefirststone
    Quick answer...Jeremiah 28:3 is a false prophecy by Hannaniah.

    True but Jeremiah ratifies that prophecy in Jer 28:6 by saying Amen. After that statement by Jeremiah the prophecy was no longer false. Jeremiah does qualify which portion of the prophecy was ratified and the part of the utensils is ratified. So the issue with the 70 years ending with the utensils being returned persists.

    I reread your post and you provide no proof that there's a link between the 70 years and the utensils being returned. The kingship of Babylon ends after 70 years but this is a separate event and the returning of the utensils only happens two years after that as was prophesied.

    If you can provide me a scripture that shows explicitly that the 70 years ends with the utensils being returned I would be grateful as this will cause me to reinvestigate 607.

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    ****Premise 3: Regarding Jeremiah 29:10,other modern translations, like the ESV, says, “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place."*****

    There were 3 Visits to Jerusalem 1. Daniel and sundry were exiled in the first visit by Babylon 609/607 BC 2. The good figs namely Jechoniah and his brothers visit by Babylon approx. 597 BC 3. The bad figs were destroyed and WOULD NOT come back under Zedekiah when Jerusalem was destroyed approx. 586/587 BC **Jeremiah 29:10,other modern translations, like the ESV, says, “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, *** This was addressed to Daniel's group and the "GOOD FIGS" that were exiled under Jechoniah AS JERUSALEM AND ZEDEKIAH WAS NOT DESTROYED AT THAT TIME. ..... You will have to wait until Jeremiah 32:...in the TENTH year of Zedekiah which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar that the word came for his and Jerusalem's destruction.
    There was NO EXILE FOR Zedekiah and the BAD FIGS 1 The LORD showed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrez'zar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconi'ah the son of Jehoi'akim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon. 2 Kgs. 24.12-16 · 2 Chr. 36.10 2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. 3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. 4 ¶ Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chalde'ans for their good. 6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up. 7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. 8 ¶ And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedeki'ah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt: 9 and I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them. 10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers. Even Matthew the gospel writer specified the exile occurred under Jechoniah. Matthew 1:11-12 So , Jehovah by means of Jeremiah @ chapter 29:10 was NOT talking about 70 years of exile from the time of Zedekiah and the destruction of Jerusalem. By your own calculations or should I say the WBTS, that would date Jechoniah's exile in 617 BC, 10 years before your 607 BC ...making ...80 years of exile .....617-537 = 80 years ...Totally wrong..... Scriptures show it was 70 years for Babylon...the org. got all its dates from the SDA and tweaked the dates like other scripture to their imminent down fall. All these dates are NOT important to most Christians as they accept The simple gospel of a changed life in Christ, but unfortunately the WBTS has made it their foundation and justification of their authority, if the dates are wrong, who selected them in 1874, 1914, 1919 or whatever date they currently use. Shalom.
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