So we are created in God's Image and expected to freely forgive those who trespass against us..so why doesn't HE?

by StoneWall 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Chariklo

  It's sorta like when people talk about the gift of god, then telling you what you have to do to expect to receive that gift.

  That's JW's, isn't it? That's their theology. here, the elders went to great legths to insist that peoople wouldn't receive God's forgiveness and his blessings if, for instance, their car was messy inside, or their garden was untidy, or there was a speck of dust somewhere inside, and that dreadful book "Keep yourselves in God's Love" has the same theme even in the title and on numerous pages.

  It is nonsense. It's the direct opposite of what God is and does. FHN and tec are absoluutely right. God's forgiveness is free, freely given, cannot be earned. We do not have to do anything to earn it, and we don't deserve it or need to deserve it, he gives it anyway.

  The Old Testament is exactly that, old, and its restrictive, sometimes vengeful view of God was the product of men's minds then. Jesus explicitly said he had come to do away with that old message, and he brought a new covenant and new hope.
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  Satanus

  'God's forgiveness is free, freely given, cannot be earned. We do not have to do anything to earn it, and we don't deserve it or need to deserve it, he gives it anyway.'

  Would i be out of line by saying that everyone has it, automatically, based on that? Or, is there a caveat, afterall?

  S
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  punkofnice

  I wonder what sort of being decides we're wrong based on it's own egotistical need to be worshipped?
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  PSacramento

  Well, the iisue of forgievness is best undestood under the context of the Parable that Jesus mentioned:'

  Matthew 18:21-35

  New American Standard Bible (NASB)

  Forgiveness

  21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

  23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

  It is a parable that highlights Us wanting to be forgiven BUT not wanting to forgive others.
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  Pterist

  *** We kinda all know the scriptures about freely forgiving those who trespass(sin) against us and Jesus words about forgiving up to seventy-seven times etc*****

  IF forgiveness is Requested !!! by the guilty partner, how can he be forgiven if he/she does NOT ask. Of course, We may wish them agape love in our heart, but they may NOT want it.

  I am not forgiven as a sinner, unless I asked for forgiveness through Christ and have a forgiving attitude towards others.

  this principle of forgiveness is a BILATERAL condition, that blesses him who gives and him/her who takes.

  ----------

  **** If I recall correctly it was only one trespass that got Adam and Eve thrown out of the garden of Eden.*****

  According to scripture and reality God allows the sun To shine on the good and bad. Many evil people prosper and can live a great life. Life is a gift. God does not owe us anything, however, he has made a way for humanity to have eternal life with him if they want it.

  The DEMANDS for righteous living in the presence of a Holy God is for those who respond to the good news To escape our nature and be RAISED to immortality. If this is not for you, your life will continue with mix blessings and grief like it does for all of us, eat, drink and be merry, but the result is death without the New Life that Christ came to give you.

  To err is human, to forgive is divine....God's laws and requirements are for a higher calling. We all have the option. I put before you Life and Death, choose LIFE. This choice was given to Adam and Eve, the nation of Israel and to us. 1 John. 5:9-13

  Shalom
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  John Kesler

  StoneWall said: It was only one trespass that got Moses in hot water and not allowed to enter the promised land. (Failure to give God credit for bringing forth water from the rocks etc.)

  Why was Moses not allowed into the promised land? Was it because of his own disobedience (Numbers 20:10-12; 27:12-13; Deut. 32:48-52), or was he punished vicariously because of the Israelites' transgressions (Deut.1:34-37; 3:21-27;4:20-22)?
  
  The passages which indicate that Moses suffered vicariously not only don't mention any culpability on Moses' part, they explicitly say that Moses paid the price for the sins of others:

  Deuteronomy 3:24-26 24 "O Lord God, you have only begun to show your servant your greatness and your might; what god in heaven or on earth can perform deeds and mighty acts like yours! 25 Let me cross over to see the good land beyond the Jordan, that good hill country and the Lebanon." 26 But Yahweh was angry with me ON YOUR ACCOUNT and would not heed me. Yahweh said to me, "Enough from you! Never speak to me of this matter again!

  Deuteronomy 4:20-21 20 But Yahweh has taken you and brought you out of the iron-smelter, out of Egypt, to become a people of his very own possession, as you are now. 21 Yahweh was angry with me BECAUSE OF YOU, and he vowed that I should not cross the Jordan and that I should not enter the good land that Yahweh your God is giving for your possession.
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  FlyingHighNow

  Here's a question: do you forgive God?

  wonder what sort of being decides we're wrong based on it's own egotistical need to be worshipped?

  Read Jehovah Unmasked. It goes into an interesting discussion of this of this question.
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  Pterist

  Flyinghigh **** Here's a question: do you forgive God?****

  Great question ! .....once again showing the reciprocity of forgiveness.
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  Cold Steel

  If I recall correctly it was only one trespass that got Adam and Eve thrown out of the garden of Eden.

  In the realms we came from, the law of justice governs even God. When Adam transgressed, it was to bring about the fall, which was a necessary part of our progression. In the councils of Heaven, God knew that even one transgression of his word would require a separation of Man and God. That's why an Intercessor and a Savior was required. Had not he met the demands of justice, he would have ceased to be God. That's why he couldn't remove the "bitter cup" that his Son freely partook of. When Adam transgressed, he gave his posterity a precious gift, which was the Light of Christ; that is, the knowledge of good and evil. He could not have had posterity without this knowledge, nor could he obtain exaltation, which is the greatest gift of God. The Intercessor and Savior was Jehovah, born into mortality as Jesus Christ. At the end of the Millennium, Jehovah will present the Earth, glorified and perfected, to the Father, and all Mankind will be judged and will bend the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ. All will be resurrected and, contrary to JW doctrine, no one will be annihilated. It’s only through the Atonement that God can receive us back into his presence. And in the same way we forgive others, so will we be forgiven for our transgressions. As the author of our salvation, Jehovah will be the judge of all Mankind. (John 5:22)

  It was only one trespass that got Moses in hot water and not allowed to enter the promised land. (Failure to give God credit for bringing forth water from the rocks etc.)

  According to extrabiblical scriptures, Moses was not denied entry into the Promised Land because of his iniquities, but because of the iniquities of the Israelites. It was because of their sins and their rejection of God that he was taken from their midst. There is a strong Hebrew tradition that Moses did not die, but that he was assumed into heaven on a cloud:

  Moses ascended in the cloud, was hidden by the cloud, and was sanctified by the cloud. (Babylonian Talmud Yoma 4a)

  When Moses was to ascend, a cloud descended and lay before him... And the cloud covered Moses and carried him up. (Pesikta Rabbati 20:4)

  Josephus also records that when Moses, Eleazar and Joshua embraced on the mountain called Abarim, Moses disappeared in a cloud. Also witnessing this event were the seventy elders of Israel, the same who had seen God and dined in his presence. The notion that Moses was taken up is strengthened by the appearance of both Elijah and Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. Since nothing is done without a purpose, the question of what they were doing on the mount is not answered in scripture. My point is that trying to make judgments against God is fraught with unknown details that aren’t always in the scriptures.
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  StoneWall

  John Kesler said:

  The passages which indicate that Moses suffered vicariously not only don't mention any culpability on Moses' part, they explicitly say that Moses paid the price for the sins of others:

  So in other words they weren't freely forgiven?

  Cold Steel said:

  According to extrabiblical scriptures, Moses was not denied entry into the Promised Land because of his iniquities, but because of the iniquities of the Israelites.

  And this is God's Justice?

  Let me ask you Cold Steel if your neighbor burned down his house and you appeared before the local Judge and he said to you, due to the fact your neighbor did such a thing, you also must give up your right to your own house and move out (through no fault of your own) would you consider that Justice?