In all US states, the Courts do NOT require two witnesses or even corroborating evidence in child sex abuse cases

by yadda yadda 2 19 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

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  Chaserious

  children within the community are more unlikely to be exposed to anything sexual as a general rule than maybe other children

  I remember there being a lot of talks in the KH about masturbation, homosexuality, porneia, harlots, concubines, fornication and adultery. Maybe this is true overall, however. It's an interesting point, you make, ItsMyLife.

  Not all false accusations are made by toddlers, though. Sometimes accusations made years later by teens or adults are fabricated for various reasons, such as financial gain. I imagine they are tough cases to deal with since physical evidence or witnesses are unlikely to exist, but it's understandable why victims might surpress what happened for so long.
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  Band on the Run

  The big problem here, in my view, is that the legal requirements of the worldly authority must be met, according to Jesus, and the church requriements are different. One would think that keeping God's vessel clean (Christ's body in mainstream belief) would require a lesser burden of proof. So rather than calling Bethel Legal first, one should call the authorities, if mandated by law.

  They are two completely different settings with different agendas. Protection against false accusers is provided by the "beyond a reasonable doubt" burden of proof. Iti s a heavy burden. I believe more and more states will adopt mandatory clergy reporting legislation, with exceptions for a true legal confession.

  Once you report it to the police or DA, the issue of what does the church community do remains. This is a First Amendment issue. Courts will not rule on this matter. Knowing what is known today about pedophilia, it seems odd that the two witness rule is applied. I am curious as to what the requirement is in the Roman Catholic, mainstream Protestant, and Pentecostal churches. The scripture used is not express.

  Jesus asserted the rights of children. Children were considered a social burden in his day. The current cutesie, adorable, angelic view of children did not apply. It was quite the opposite. Children performed labor at ages 4 under conditions that would make Southern slavery look good. So Jesus' statement was very radical and against the weight of culture. So we have two interests that must be protected. Both are valid concerns. Protection of adults from phony accusations by children and protection of children, prob. the most vulnerable group in any society, from sex predators. Unless we believe God was moral when he commanded Abraham to murder Isaac, the choice is obvious. No one is talking about sending an adult to prison based on a child's statement alone.

  Common law criminal law evolved over centuries. Indeed, the growth of England into a nation-state corresponded with the growth of the king's power over his vassals. England had different court systems for almost every legal topic. The king's justice in criminal matters was extremely limited. If a criminal acted on a lord's land, criminal was tried under the local manor law. If said criminal could escape to church lands which were vast and recite a few words of Latin, the king could not do anything. The kings were not happy with this arrangemet nor were the victims of criminals. To deal with the problem a legal fiction was introduced. Criiminal behavior disturbed "the king's peace." Maintaining his "peace," the king's soldiers could now grab criminals from manor courts and church lands.

  The jury in the Conti case and juries in the Roman Catholic cases have found that children should be protected. These verdicts would not have been possible 30 years ago.
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  Theocratic Sedition

  Did the elder school thing a few weeks ago and they emphasized to the audience that all allegations should be investigated and reported to the branch, however, no action is to be taken by the elder body unless there is a confession or two credible witnesses. In the meantime elders are to monitor the person in question. They used Deuteronomy 19:15 & Matthew 18:16 to back their position. They also stated that the branch decides who is and who isn't a predator. After that part of it I understood why they didnt want any recording devices in the school, including tablets.
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  Vidiot

  Band on the Run - "The big problem here, in my view, is that the legal requirements of the worldly authority must be met, according to Jesus, and the church requriements are different. One would think that keeping God's vessel clean (Christ's body in mainstream belief) would require a lesser burden of proof."

  Jesus' admonitions notwithstanding, following the requirements of the secular authorities is gonna stick in the craw of any die-hard WTS company man.

  Even the suggestion that an element of "Satan's World" might be more effective than the Org in protecting its membership, dispensing justice, and ferreting out the truth (*gasp*) is gonna rub against the grain, and in a lot of cases will almost definately trigger a knee-jerk reaction in the opposite direction...
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  Band on the Run

  Vidiot,

  You are correct. I see that as the problem in a nutshell. Everyone here knows as they love to be contrary to something. It does matter what the thing is, they are against it. Much of the trouble on this forum can be traced to this mindset.

  They have a higher standard of proof (two witnesses) than "beyond a reasonable doubt" and prison time, stripped of most civil rights and civil liberties.

  With my profession, I view things very differently than when I was a Witness. It takes massive sums of money and dedicated employees to provide public roads, a postal system, contract law and tort law, elected legislatures and executives, a public health service, and even a military to protect us from invasion. They want all this for free and with no obligation. Well, society has the law enforcement resources to make them behave.

  I will neve recall what it was like being raised as a Witness during the Cold War. Every night I watched East German soldier murder people escaping to West Berlin. No one was stopping anyone from West Berlin going to East Berlin, It was very graphic. The Cuban Missle Crisis had me so nervous I could not breathe for months. We stopped learning subjects in school and practiced surviving a nuclear war. My parents drag us to the KH and I hear how there is no difference between the United States and the Soviet Union. Let Bethelites live in the Soviet Union. I wanted to see Knorr or Franz going to Siberia for preaching.

  They have a choice. Either they comply or they pay out many millions in civil judgments. They comply or they sit in prison. The law does not state to have the branch decide. It states to report it to the local authorities. Their legal advice is silly. Confrontation for the mere sake of confrontation.

  Little Rock found out about complying with federal law. Alabama and Mississippi learned about federal law.
• 

  Vidiot

  Band on the Run - "Little Rock found out about complying with federal law. Alabama and Mississippi learned about federal law."

  Funny how every authoritarian high control group is so damn sure that they won't suffer a similar fate.

  Reminds me... since you're in the legal profession, I've been meaning to ask your opinion about this: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/240287/1/Something-occurred-to-mee280a6
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  Band on the Run

  The New York Times had an essay discussing the point raised in your post only a few days ago. I posted the info here but I have problems making links workable. It said no religion was exempt from sexual abuse. It focused on Zen Buddhists, Scientology, and one other religion I forget. It did say that the less transparent the religion, the chances increase for sexual abuse. For example, it said Episcoplians and Lutherans are transparent and, while there is abuse, it is minimal compared to high control groups. Of course, the Episcopal bishop of Philadelphia definitely covered up for his brother's pedophilia. The brother was also a priest. When it became public, the governing authority fired him. He refused to leave.
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  Band on the Run

  I've thought about writing an essay for New York Times publication. The traffic is very heavy. We would have to turn the rage against the WT a bit. I even researched the op-ed requirements. Few essays are published. The primary criteria is to present a topic that the Times does not normally cover. Since I researched it several months ago, though, I've been analyzing what they choose to print. They seem to print almost anything.

  If anyone would want to colloborate, I would enjoy it. Well, I won't enjoy the process but I will enjoy the result. I am not very creative so I don't know how to pitch the article. If published, any time someone researched pedophilia or sexual abuse, the article would be part of the search results.

  In fact, the whole issue of transparency could be how to make into a nonWitness rage piece.
• 

  Vidiot

  I remember that article.

  As much as I respect and admire Ray Franz and what he's done for the XJW community, one thing I'm positive he was mistaken about was the degree of institutionalized sexual victimization within the WTS compared to other religions.

  It's a problem in heirarchal, authoritarian religions, but almost nonexistent in groups that embrace financial and policy transparency, utilize the diplomatic process and egalitarianism, and properly acknowledge the accomplishments and discoveries of science and history.

  Have you considered collaborating with Cedars? You and he seem to be on the same page, and he's got some writing experience.
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  Band on the Run

  I believe I did. He is writing his book. Perhaps my problem is that i want to write it as well as the existing op-ed pieces. There is a certain uniformity in the style. Editors! It won't hurt to ask again.