Would you believe Abraham and Sarah existed before the Bible and King David etc.

by mP 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mP
    mP

    The cult centers that were associated with Abram are very ancient but seems to be part of the larger myth/legend of a human progenitor.

    LEO:

    I think I kind of agree with that. I recognize that there were different cult centers in the Negev, in the highlands, in the Hebron area, etc. that were associated with an Abram as an ancestral figure ("exalted is father" is an appropriate name as well), not to mention Paddan-Aram. The legend in ch. 14 also portrays Abram as a heroic figure. It would seem that different cult centers had different Abram/Abraham traditions which later were consolidated into connected narratives (J, E, P), the bulk of the traditions pertaining to Hebron. We know that the terebinths of Mamre were the home of a tree-veneration cult (which still persisted into Roman times), and the Abram legend might have been one means of legitimizing local cult centers after the Josianic legislation; they could still be held as sacred through association with Abraham, reminiscent of how the Temple Mount remains a sacred site in Islam through its association with Muhammad (displacing or replacing the original sacred context of the site, just as the Jewish veneration of the site may have replaced an original Canaanite Shalem/Zedek cult).

    mP:

    I fail to see how stating the obvious somehow contributes to disproving my observation. Mohammad is nearly 2000 years after Abraham which is itselfstill after the Hindu traditions. Discussing Islam doesnt help add weight to your argument.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Mp: you should really google the birthday paradox, it explain why you would expect to find a large number of similarities.

  • mP
    mP

    bohm:

    Mp: you should really google the birthday paradox, it explain why you would expect to find a large number of similarities.

    mp:

    Similarities of what, can you be specific. In actuality the number of combinations using just a few consonants because a very large number very quickly. Your commentary makes no sense. The fact that with just 4-5 letters we in English have thousands and thosuands of words shows this.

    26^4 = 450K.

    even if we disregard half the alphabet because many letteers are rarely used, eg x and q.

    13^4 = 29K

    13^5= 371K

  • mP
    mP

    d/p

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I was not insulting you by saying you do not understand linguistics; I was making an accurate statement of fact. It's not an insult to lack knowledge about something...I'm similarly ignorant in biology, computer science, or many other specialized areas. The problem is that you are making challenges and claims based on things you don't understand, and I really don't have the energy or interest to write long essays explaining the basics of phonology, semantics, and historical linguistics, because it would take that to respond adequately to what you have just written because we are literally poles apart on this. Hence my polite suggestion to be educated somewhat on linguistics, perhaps by reading an introductory textbook, or several.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    A few quick points.

    Firstly proto indo means it came from the east towards India way which also happens to pass the NME. You have not shown a source from a completely path.

    It does not mean that at all (look up any introductory text). And the migration of Indo-Iranians was eastward to India.

    The Europeans copied much from the NME, alphabets, gods and as you shown the entire language has sources from that way.

    Has nothing at all to do with genetic relationships. Your premises are wrong.

    Again you have only dug back to the Latins which are at the very least 1500 years after El of Canaan. You also mention Greek links. I cant help but see the pattern that your heading further and futher east and closer to the NME.

    Your premises are wrong. Some knowledge of comparative linguistics would help here.

    Perhaps continuing the search back from those two cultures will find more semetic sources.

    There are none for the PIE root in question. And you would be looking for a word meaning "to grow, nourish". There is absolutely no reason to suspect any connection with a particular West Semitic deity (which incidentally dates to a time long after PIE).

    Wow because Abraham starts with an "A" and Brahma does not that makes the match impossible, and yet your variations from Germanic and Irish roots which diverge significantly more are perfectly compatible.

    There is a consonant there, not just an "a". There is no relationship established between the two different names, whereas there are between genetically related languages (like the Germanic languages). And here an education on comparative lingusitics and sound correspondences would help; the "divergences" are predictable and explicable. There is a ton of material on comparative Indo-European.

    Abraham is a very normal West Semitic name. See Thomas L. Thompson, posted above. "Because of this typical character, and the fact that it is a specifically West Semitic form of the name, caution must be used in comparing it with names (even when the resemblence is striking) that are derived from other linguistic groups".

    And as mentioned above, I am doubtful there was even a pairing of Brahma and Saraswati in India before the Pentateuchal sources were written (much less the tradents that preceded them).

    Your introducing noise and avoiding proofs by continually bringing these labels up.

    Trying to explain why your thinking is erroneous is not "introducing noise". So I see no reason to spend hours trying to do just that.

    I dont think i need to show that Allah is a moon good. We can see in Arabic with the above example that they honour their God by using a contraction of his name as the definitive article.

    More sound symbolism nonsense. This was already discussed a year ago. Here, I'll copy and post what I wrote then, "That is simply a phonological assimilation rule that by convention is named after two very common everyday words (that are related in concept). Its just a grammatical rule that has a memorable mnemonic; why must every reference to the 'sun' or 'moon' have some religious sun-worship meaning read into it?"

    We can see this tradition extending to Spansih, French and other romantic languages, where "la" and "el" are also the definitive article. We can see "Ra" also honoured as the source of the word for king in Spansih, Fr and in other forms related to royalty in English, royal, reign, regal and so on.

    Again, more sound symbolism.

    Another cut 'n' paste from a year ago: "Of course its chance...you are finding meaning in lots of chance similarities. That's what I've been telling you. Etymology and historical roots of Indo-European words are VERY well understood after hundreds of years of study; this isn't a matter of guessing blindly at what might seem like amazing coincidences....it is a matter of linguistic evidence and proper methodology. You can take two random languages and compare them find all sorts of totally amazing coincidences (which of course, aren't that amazing) when you don't have any methodology of determining what is chance "similarity" and what is evidence of actual historical relationships". Also: "As for your premise, you think that there are sun and moon connotations all over the place in English and other languages because you are looking for them and are willing to find them almost anywhere. If one were looking for cat and dog references, one would be equally inclined to amazingly find references to cats and dogs all over the place in English. That doesn't mean they are really there; it means that those words have that kind of resonance with you. And that's the awesome thing about language, that it can carry lots of different meanings for people, but etymology is about word history and the facts show the kind of claims you've made don't correspond to the actual word origins."

    Really, this is where an education in linguistics would help. Saussure and everything else.

    We can see Japanese often have problems and use L for R because they are both formed in the mouth in a very similar way.

    Some knowledge of phonology would help here. I have no idea why you mention shorthand.

    Last but not least look up the LPA charts. Sorry the table comes out badly formatted here but the link above shows in clear detail that L and R are clearly grouped together. The chart also shows the consonant pairs that i was alluding too in my previous statement that certain transpositions occur like TD, PB, FV etc.

    Those are general similarities in articulation. Those are generalities, I'm talking about specifics of the languages in question. Specifics in phonemic inventories, specifics on sound correspondences, specifics of sound mergers, etc. Whatever is going on in Japanese has little to do with specifics of Germanic, Greek, etc.

    Here i am open, receptive asking for proofs and the best you can do is insult me with a lame personally targetted observation. Im happy to read anything, all that i ask is show me, instead of telling me what you want me to think. I never run away, but you have again shut up and gone home because you claim to base your assertions on facts but as soon as they are challenged you cant.

    I don't think you realize what it would take to "prove" to you where your thinking is wrong. I don't have the interest and energy to write long essays on basics of linguistics; I would rather comment on things I find interesting. If you wish to learn more about the subject, there are some good books out there, or college courses on the subject.

    I fail to see how stating the obvious somehow contributes to disproving my observation. Mohammad is nearly 2000 years after Abraham which is itselfstill after the Hindu traditions. Discussing Islam doesnt help add weight to your argument.

    This has nothing to do with your observations, whatever they are. This is a response to PP. Mohammad has nothing to do with Abraham. I was giving an obvious example of how a sacred site can change its meaning or religious affiliation. There are scores of others; this is a more general anthropological phenomenon.

  • bohm
    bohm

    mp:

    there is not 4 consonants in "El". I got no idea why you base your entire argument on words with 4 consonants but whatever.

    try and compute colissions between two vocabularies of a reasonable size and you will properly be surpriced how common it is.

  • mP
    mP

    Leo:

    I was not insulting you by saying you do not understand linguistics; I was making an accurate statement of fact. It's not an insult to lack knowledge about something...I'm similarly ignorant in biology, computer science, or many other specialized areas

    mP:

    Its an insult to me because you spend so much time telling me im wrong and assuming that you are an authority. If only you followed thru with proofs which i a have stated i am willing to read, but you often dont provide. Claiming authority or knowledge is not enuff when someone asks to see it. I also fail to see why you continue to repeat these opinions, not facts. As long as you fail to back it up with stuff everyone can read its YOUR OPINION.

  • mP
    mP

    A few quick points.

    Firstly proto indo means it came from the east towards India way which also happens to pass the NME. You have not shown a source from a completely path.

    It does not mean that at all (look up any introductory text). And the migration of Indo-Iranians was eastward to India.

    mP:

    Im sorry you have completely failed to appreciate my comment. All i was stating is that the proto india homeland connection with Europe passed through the NME. Whether they went up, down, around or whever is irrelevant. Stop picking on minor details and address the "big" issue is this statement accurate or incorrect.

    -

    . LEO The etymology of the word "elder" is well-known and traceable to Proto-Indo-European through normal linguistic principles.

    You originally said Proto-Indo and now your saying Indo-Iranian ,i dont wish to niit pick but they are not exact equivalents. However for the purposes of our discussion they are close enough, in that they bring these cultures and languages closer to the NME.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

    Scholars estimate that PIE may have been spoken as a single language (before divergence began) around 3700 BC, though estimates by different authorities can vary by more than a millennium. The most popular hypothesis for the origin and spread of the language is the Kurgan hypothesis , which postulates an origin in the Pontic-Caspian steppe of Eastern Europe.

    Given they are in the neighbourhood is still possible to see that these peoples also shared and influenced what eventually became NME culture and langauge.

  • mP
    mP
    MP: Your introducing noise and avoiding proofs by continually bringing these labels up.

    LEO:

    Trying to explain why your thinking is erroneous is not "introducing noise". So I see no reason to spend hours trying to do just that.

    ...

    Your premises are wrong. Some knowledge of comparative linguistics would help here.

    mP:

    Here we go again, you state im wrong but offer not a single proof. You keep labelling me but you cant show me an authority that backs you claim.

    Leo

    There is a consonant there, not just an "a". There is no relationship established between the two different names, whereas there are between genetically related languages (like the Germanic languages). And here an education on comparative lingusitics and sound correspondences would help; the "divergences" are predictable and explicable. There is a ton of material on comparative Indo-European.

    Abraham is a very normal West Semitic name. See Thomas L. Thompson, posted above. "Because of this typical character, and the fact that it is a specifically West Semitic form of the name, caution must be used in comparing it with names (even when the resemblence is striking) that are derived from other linguistic groups".

    mP:

    The quote you give from TLT does not in anyway correct my assumption nor back your claim, while it may appear to cite caution. Unless he actually discusses something remotely close to A & S, while interesting does not say much.

    Leo:

    why must every reference to the 'sun' or 'moon' have some religious sun-worship meaning read into it?"

    mP:

    Because our lives have lots of references to them, the months, weeks, holidays etc its everywhere because the ancients really believed. I showed the Arabic example because its quite clear that that culture acknoweldges this. Xianity is full of the same astrological symbolism everywhere and given its prominent role in forming western europe its not surprise this was also copied.

    Leo:

    Some knowledge of phonology would help here. I have no idea why you mention shorthand.

    mP:

    I showed a table that groups L and R as closely related, you appeared to state in earlier posts they arent. The Shorthand reference adds to this. The IPA qualifies as linguists, i fail to see why you disregard their facts. The table shows and backs up my premise that consonant pairs are often interchanged. If cant pick up on this exchange from all your observations in life i dont know what to say.

    Leo

    Whatever is going on in Japanese has little to do with specifics of Germanic, Greek, etc.

    mP:

    The reasons this transpositions occur is above langauge and in the mind. In our mind PB, TD, LR and other pairs are much closer and this is why these transpositions occur everywhere. Its not hard to find them everywhere.

    Peking/Bejing,

    Kangaroo/Gangaroo(the initial K became a G, Cook heard K when the locals said G)

    ...

    LEO:

    This has nothing to do with your observations, whatever they are. This is a response to PP. Mohammad has nothing to do with Abraham. I was giving an obvious example of how a sacred site can change its meaning or religious affiliation. There are scores of others; this is a more general anthropological phenomenon.

    mP:

    Your the one who brought up Islam and M, i was exclusively limiting myself to Canaan and EL. GO back and read your comments. Its there for everyone to see.

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