Creation Story Contradiction

by JosephAlward 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    This is a very long thread and not one of my favourite topics, but on DiscoveryChannel tonight aired SNOWBALL EARTH. This segment followed a piece on how stars are made. (They are tracking the 2 nebulas in Orion with the Hubble t.)

    For those not familiar with the Snowball Earth Theory, I highly recommend a looksee, a lot of bugs have been recently ironed out with math, chemistry, biology, physical evidence, & eye witness scenario corraboration. (they dove under the 16ft thick ice sheets in Antarctia which they thought might be dark & debunk the theory but found the oldest bacteria known as well as green algae!)

    Worth a look, transcripts available EXN.ca - discovery Canada

    Just think of all the extra time you'd have to think of other things if this panned out!

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    Why is it then that the first story of the creation claims that it was the product of the gods (elohim), but the second story claims that it was the product of the mithological tribal Jewish war god Yaweh?

    JRP
    Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
    Nietzsche

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    Joseph:

    Thus, there is never is a period of time when there is land without surface water available to irrigate the land in the first creation story, while in the second creation story (Genesis 2:4-5) there is such a time period; this is a contradiction.

    In Genesis 1:6–10 all it says is that God is separating land from sea—it doesn’t give any details on land irrigation, rain, mist, streams etc., just that he made land and sea as separate areas. In a new paragraph [1:11] it says: “Then God said, ‘Let land produce vegetation….’” But still gives no irrigation details. Logically he would have to have initiated some kind of system to produce the needed water requirements for plant life, be that streams/strong mist/fog etc. That would parallel with what we read in verse 2:6.

    So in as far as: “never is a period of time when there is land without surface water.” I would disagree, verse 1:6–10 gives no information at all of a plentiful water supply or any plant growth whatsoever—so that would parallel with verse 2:5 describing the same situation.

    So both accounts do give the same information, just from slightly differing angles—there is no direct contradiction.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    I will repeat my argument while addressing the comments by Nemesis:

    Genesis 2:5 describes a period of time, prior to the coming of the underground stream waters, during which there was land, but no surface water to irrigate it:

    and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth (Genesis 2:5)
    However, Genesis 1:9-11 makes it clear that the "gathered waters" separated from the land logically preceded the production of vegetation:

    9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation"…and it was so. (Genesis 1:9-11)
    Nemesis argues that this account does not specifically say that the gathered waters irrigated the land, but how else could the vegetation have grown in Verse 11 if the land wasn't irrigated by the gathered waters in Verse 10? Isn't it clear that the author of this creation story wanted his readers to infer that the gathered waters enabled plant growth? If so, then the two creation stories contradict each other. The first makes it clear that land and irrigating water were simultaneously created by the act of creating land by drawing water away from parts of the earth. Thus, there was never a time when the land in the first creation story was without irrigating water. But, this contradicts the second creation story, which tells us the opposite.

    Nemesis, do you agree that there were two different authors contributing to Genesis 1:1-2:25, and that the first author was the one who called the deity "God" (Elohim) thirty-five times in a row, never called him by another name, and that the second author, who begins his story at Genesis 2:4, called the deity "LORD God" (Yahovah Elohim) nine times in a row, and never called him by another name?

    If you agree with this, do you think that the likelihood that there could be a contradiction between the two stories is greater than there would be if there were only one author?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    Joseph,
    The word "Elohim" does not mean "god", it means "gods", the singular word for "god" is "el".
    You can see this in the NWT with references. It is the second point of the explanations for Genesis 1:1. Of course apologists claim that it is the majestatic form, and means god in singular.
    Excuses, excuses, excuses.
    This is a clear rip-off of the babilonian mith of the creation.

    Note that Jehovah if people already knew that Jehova was the only god, it does not make sense to call him Jehovah elohim, and translate it as Jehovah god. It would have sufficed to just call him Jehovah, or "el" The real translation of Jehovah elohim is "Jehovah of the gods". Note also that it says in Genesis 1:26:
    And God said, Let US (plural) make man in OUR (plural)image, after OUR (plural) likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Also notice Genesis 1:27:
    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    It does not make sense to say that god created mankind in his image, male and female, because he would have to be male and female. If you translate "elohim" as "gods", it does make sense because there are male gods and female gods.

    JRP
    Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
    Nietzsche

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    Hi Joseph:

    Well… I really don’t see how anyone would interpret Genesis 1:6–10 as anything but the differing formation of land from sea. There is no elaboration on irrigation for plants. “And God said: ‘Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let the dry ground appear.’ And it was so. God called the dry ground ‘land’, and the gathered waters he called ‘seas’. And God saw that is was good.”—Gen. 1:9, 10

    All that is being described Joseph is the formation of land, just like when a new Hawaiian island appears in the pacific. The earth/magma level has to rise above sea level to become a separate boundary, a boundary commonly known as ‘dry land’, and the water as the sea.

    Nemesis argues that this account does not specifically say that the gathered waters irrigated the land, but how else could the vegetation have grown in Verse 11 if the land wasn't irrigated by the gathered waters in Verse 10?
    As said Joseph, the gathering is simply the separation and the distinction between dry land and sea. The irrigation would come later in the same manner as described in the second account: “But streams came up from the surface and watered the whole surface of the ground.”—Gen. 2:6

    As for Elohim/Yahweh, I don’t think that is relevant for the questions your poised, whether plants came before man, and then when/how plants grew, as the ‘dry’ period is clearly separate from the plant growth period—Genesis 1:9, 10; 2:4, 5.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Genesis 2:5 describes a period of time, prior to the coming of the underground stream waters, during which there was land, but no surface water to irrigate it:

    and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth (Genesis 2:5)
    However, this contradicts Genesis 1:9-11 (see below), where it is perfectly clear that land and the separated waters were created simultaneously by the act of drawing the water away from certain parts of the earth and placing it in seas, like the Sea of Galilee, for example. Thus, there was never a time in the first creation story when there was not water available for irrigating plant life. This clearly contradicts the second creation story.

    9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation"…and it was so. (Genesis 1:9-11)
    While it's true the Genesis 1 author does not explicitly say that the waters gathered into "seas" were used to irrigate plants in Verse 10, he nevertheless obviously expected us to know that the seas and land were created simultaneously and that the seas thus formed provided the water to promote the plant growth that would occur in the very next verse. Thus, there always was water on or near the land to irrigate the plants, even though the Genesis 1 author didn't choose to spell out what should be obvious.

    I earlier wrote,

    Nemesis argues that this account does not specifically say that the gathered waters irrigated the land, but how else could the vegetation have grown in Verse 11 if the land wasn't irrigated by the gathered waters in Verse 10?

    Nemesis responded,

    The irrigation would come later

    In the second creation story that's true, but what about the first creation story? How could it have been true, as the Genesis writer said, that "it was so" (plants had grown) in Verse 11, if there had not been water to promote the growth? Thus, there MUST have been water available. What was the source of that water? Well, the first creation story author makes the answer to that question clear: in the previous verse (Verse 10) he tells us that land and the seas are formed simulataneously. Thus, land and land water in lakes were created at the same time, and so there was never a time in the first creation story when there was land without water available for irrigation. This contradicts the second creation story.

    I know it's hard to accept that there are contradictions in the creation story, but it can be easier if one first admits that there are obviously two different stories from two different traditions. This is what makes this question relevant to our discussion, I believe.

    From the first tradition we have an author who called the deity "God" exclusively, 35 times in a row; then, suddenly, at the exact beginning of the second creation story, the name changes to "LORD God," and that name is used exclusively until the end of the second account. Before fundamentalists present arguments which deny the possibility that there are contradictions in the creation stories, they should address the question of the divine names.

    So, Nemesis, I ask you once again to comment on this.

    Nemesis, do you agree that there were two different authors contributing to Genesis 1:1-2:25, and that the first author was the one who called the deity "God" thirty-five times in a row, never called him by another name, and that the second author, who begins his story at Genesis 2:4, called the deity "LORD God" nine times in a row, and never called him by another name?

    If you agree with this, do you think that the likelihood that there could be a contradiction between the two stories is greater than there would be if there were only one author?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

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