what takes away salvation (page 5)

designs

Badfish- you point out exactly why christianity is such a mess of interpretations and why any discussion about salvation is mute because the followers of Jesus cannot agree on the simpliest of beliefs. Catholics and most Protestants believe and teach they will come back to the earth at the Second Coming and live forever on the earth, others like Lutherans and Greek Orthodox believe they will live forever in heaven. You're a fun (funny) group, don't beat up the JWs to bad when you can't get it together yourselves

PSacramento

Well then what part of "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom" do they not understand?

Orthodox Christian teaching is, basically, we die, spirit ( and soul in some interpretations) goes the God in Heaven ( in some view only after a cleansing of sorts in "hades", "sheol" "purgatory"), at the final judgment, all will be resurrected (body, soul and spirit together again), judged ( there are soem differences of interpretationhere) and then there will be a new Earth and New Heaven.

Deputy Dog

most Protestants believe and teach they will come back to the earth at the Second Coming and live forever on the earth

That is NOT a true statement.

There are some who believe in a millenial reign, but most all agree the eternal state will be in heaven.

PSacramento

Catholic view:

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ. 631

1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth." 632 It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth." 633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men. 634 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away." 635

1045For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament." 636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, "the holy city" of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." 637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community. 638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 639

1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ. 640

1048 "We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men." 641

1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society." 642

1050 "When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom." 643 God will then be "all in all" in eternal life: 644

True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life. 645

designs

DD- Nope. Read up on the Catholic view and the Presbyterian view, ol Luther was in the minority.

PSacramento

Lutheran view:

Afterlife and Salvation

Written by: Ted Vial

Martin Luther, like most traditional Christians, believed that this life was simply a pilgrimage, a journey toward our final destination.That destination was an eternity spent either in heaven or in hell.There was nothing one could do to earn a spot in heaven-God freely forgave the sins of some, and they could enter heaven.Heaven is a state of blessedness where you exist in the presence of God, something humans have not been able to do since the fall in the Garden of Eden.Hell was a place of torment, as just punishment for sin.

Luther disagreed strongly with the Roman Catholic teaching that there is also a place called purgatory, because purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible.The belief in purgatory developed over the course of the Middle Ages, driven by the logic of the Catholic system of sanctification.Those who were baptized and thus cleansed of the stain of original sin still had to pay the debt for the offense of sin to a perfect God.(In addition, any additional sins must be paid for.)You earned merits toward the debt by performing works, especially the sacraments.Since no work of a finite fallen being on its own would count for much, only works performed within the structure of God's grace mediated by the church counted.Very few people led a life sufficiently sinless and with enough good works to be out of debt when they died.Those who did were saints.Those who had made sufficient but not complete progress on the path of sanctification were sent at death to purgatory, which was exactly like hell (full of torment) to burn away or purge the remaining sin.The difference between purgatory and hell is that there is an end point to purgatory: when your sins are purged you may enter heaven.Luther argued instead that all were sinners, always.Saints were all Christians whose sins had been forgiven and who had received that forgiveness, and had therefore been justified, through faith.At death they slept peacefully until the final resurrection of the dead when they entered heaven.(John Calvin opposed this argument, insisting instead that the dead souls of the saved rested in a blessed state until they were resurrected.)

In the past, the major split in Christianity on the afterlife was between Lutherans and Calvinists on the one hand, who argued that humans played no role in their own salvation, and Catholics and Methodists who argued that free will and works played a role.In more recent years the more significant split has been between the more conservative and more liberal wings of each Protestant denomination.

The conservative wing of the Lutheran Church maintains its belief in an afterlife spent in a literal place, either heaven or hell.More liberal Lutherans tend to downplay hell, often because the image of God torturing people for eternity, even if they are sinners, is not easy to square with their idea of a loving God.Nor is it easy to square the idea of a just God with one who casts people into hell just because, as the result of fortune for which they are not responsible, they have not lived in a place where the Gospel of Jesus was preached.

Far more Americans say that they believe in heaven in recent surveys, than say they believe in hell.There are also Lutherans since the mid-20th century (this is true of all Protestant denominations) who hold that neither heaven nor hell are literal places.If the core of salvation as described above is to live in the presence of God, heaven is then a metaphor for blessedness or a divine relationship in this life.Hell is a metaphor for living in the absence of God in this life.

Badfish

at the final judgment, all will be resurrected (body, soul and spirit together again)

Of course it says the body will be resurrected, but it also says what type of body they are raised up in.

"It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one." (1 Corinthians 15:44)

And verse 44: " And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. "

Bones? Yes?

Blood? No.

Able to be both material AND immaterial on will? Yes, it seems so ( though nothing is explicit in scripture about it).

what takes away salvation

Afterlife and Salvation

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