Caballo,
UN/WT has been one of my favorite issues
Who is the UN Secretary you remember best?
You dont have to answer...
My congregation & the UN (Update)...
by caballoSentado 39 Replies latest jw friends
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jwsons
CaballoSentado (?)
There is a new thread just interesting, ie. more details about the relation between UN and WacoTower (or DarkTower):
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=24624&site=3 -
You Know
cabballo:
My friend, sometimes it is difficult to express your feelings using a language that is not yours. I will try...
Actually your English is better than many whose first language is English.
When I learned of this, It hurt me... I thought I was in the truth... I thought that my "church" was different from others... I was proud of being a JW... but I loved God & the Bible.
The problem as I see it lies with your faith, or lack of. How can a person boast of being "in the truth" when in actuality their faith is determined by the actions of men that they are following? You merely changed from following one group of men to following another, with predictably equally unsatisfactory results.After several months of investigation I discovered that our organisation was no better that many churches I knew. They had been for years in asociation with what they call the "Wild beast", and worse, they lied to all of us in the letter to the branches.
You are wrong about the Watchtower not being different than other religons. That's simply not true. In the case of other religions they see no problem at all with supporting various political institutions. In fact, participating in the worldly political system is viewed by most as their Christian obligation. However, Jehovah's Witnesses are no part of the world in that respect. They still aren't in spite of the secret NGO affliation. Besides, the Watchtower disolved the relationship, so it's not even an issue going forward. And as you admit it was only by diligent investigation on your part that you uncovered that the Watchtower Society had a secret connection to the UN as an NGO. But this in no way effects the lives and faith of Jehovah's Witnesses in that the Watchtower has not overtly made this affliation known, nor have they encouraged the flock to support the UN in any special way. That's not to say that the Watchtower has not acted treacherously and hypocritically. They have. And I belive they have compromised the organization in Jehovah's eyes. The point is though that your statment is false, there is a big difference between our faith and Christendom. That's why it is such a shocking development because we are different.When I had all the information about the UN affair I started to look for help from some elders, friends of mine, I thought they could have an answer, I thought they could show me that I was in error...but to no avail... in that process some of this elders, my friends, saw the unfaithfulness of the Organisation. Is it my fault?
No. I can't blame you for that. You initially gave me the impression that you were actively exposing the Watchtower's sin for the sake of sowing doubt. But if you merely went to the elders seeking guidance then that's different. There's no question that the Society has set an enourmous stumbling block before the brothers. Perhaps what you are unaware of though is that there are numerous prophecies that call for many to be stumbled right before and during the end phase of this system. So as tragic as these events are there are not to be unexpected. It is leading up to the ultimate test of our faith.I know that one might stumble, I stumbled too. But I do not regret having learned of this. If you love God, you search for
Again, the way this thing works is that if you are following men then you are going to be stumbled. It's that simple. Let me ask you: When you were supposedly "in the truth," did you actually have a relationship with Jehovah God? Were you absolutely convinced that you knew what his will was for you? Did you feel his holy spirit? Did you experince deep joy in knowing the truth about God and Christ? Could you see the effects of Jehovah's holy spirit in the lives of others? Did Jehovah frequently answer your prayers? Only if you actually had a personal relationship with Jehovah and Christ were you ever actually "in the truth." Otherwise you just had a religion and you could have just as easily been a Catholic or whatever. But, if you were in the truth in the actual sense, then why would you leave the truth because of what the Watchtower did in secret? How could that possibly nullify the truth?
the truth, even if it hurts to know...I left the Catholic church some 25 years ago for that reason.but after reading CoC and crying she told me
Ahh! So it was more than just innocently coming across the Watchtower's NGO fiasco. You have obviously drank more deeply of apostate accusations than you would lead the brothers to believe. That expalins a lot.It is the organisation that is doing the stumbling, they are the ones being hypocritical. Our loved ones are at risk... they are following men not God.
Obviously you are following men because, as I pointed out, your faith is determined by what the Watchtower does or doesn't do. If they are faithful, then you will be faithful. If they are unfaithful then you will be unfaithful. Is that not following men? It seems to me that you were doomed to stumble from the get-go. / You Know -
bjc2012
You Know said,
...And as you admit it was only by diligent investigation on your part that you uncovered that the Watchtower Society had a secret connection to the UN as an NGO. But this in no way effects the lives and faith of Jehovah's Witnesses in that the Watchtower has not overtly made this affliation known, nor have they encouraged the flock to support the UN in any special way. That's not to say that the Watchtower has not acted treacherously and HYPOCRITICALLY. They have. And I belive they have compromised the organization in Jehovah's eyes.
So then, if the Governing Body has "acted hypocritically" in God's eyes with respect to the secret 10-year UN-NGO Affair, then their wicked "hypocrisy" acts as unholy "LEAVEN" that spreads and permeates the entire congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses earthwide. Their unholy "hypocrisy" would act then, precisely the same as the insidious "hypocrisy" of the Pharisees, which we remember had the affect of wicked CONTAMINATION upon the spiritual worship of the nation of Israel during Jesus' day.Jesus plainly said,
"...Watch out for the LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES, WHICH IS HYPOCRISY." (Luke 12:1)
And, if "hypocrisy" is considered spiritually "leavenous" to the congregation in God's eyes, then, as every christian knows,
"A little leaven ferments the whole lump." (Galatians 5:9)
Thus, the "whole lump", the earthwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses are adversely affected by this "innocent" hypocrisy, you speak of, with respect to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. The ones who have hatched, conspired and secretly perpetrated this heinous act upon the congregation of God.
Needless to say, this makes the Governing Body exactly like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day, in whom Jesus felt compelled to expose by saying,
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which OUTWARDLY, INDEED APPEAR BEAUTIFUL but inside are full of dead men's bones and of every sort of uncleanness. In that way you also, OUTWARDLY INDEED, APPEAR RIGHTEOUS TO MEN, but inside you are FULL OF HYPOCRISY and lawlessness." (Matthew 23:27, 28)
So, You Know, you are wrong again.
bjc
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LDH
BJC
So good to see you again, and YUP you kicked You Know's Arse.
How is everything? Drop me an email.
Lisa
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You Know
bjc2012: There are literally dozens of prophecies that indicate that Jehovah is going to allow his organization to be put through an ordeal that will serve as discipline for the faithful as well as purge the unfaithful element from our midst. As it stands Jehovah also allows "an operation of error" to go forth among his people. Those who have wicked hearts seize upon these errors as a pretext to justify their apostasy. That's basically how it works. / You Know
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bjc2012
you know said,
...As it stands Jehovah also allows "an operation of error" to go forth among his people.
Again, "open mouth, insert foot".As Jesus said, "You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures, nor the power of God". (Matthew 22:29)
And that's your problem, You Know.
Let me explain.
For the benefit of JW-novices who may be wondering, I perceive your above scriptural quotation is taken from 2 Thessalonians. 2:11, 12 which says,
"So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that THEY ALL MAY BE JUDGED because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thess. 2:11, 12)
Now, why in the world would you use these verses to prove your point, You Know?
I say this because this verse speaks of the DIVINE PENALTY enacted upon those who are clearly the unwitting loyal followers of the "man of lawlessness" in his open "rebellion" and "apostasy" against God. The "operation of error" is their "judgment" from God, collectively as a people who are clearly disloyal to God. And because of this, the verse plainly says, they are "ALL JUDGED" by God. That's "ALL", as in all. So say the Holy Scriptures.
So, as you have so adroitly pointed out You Know, if we should apply this scripture and prophecy to Jehovah's Witnesses, then that would unavoidably and inescapably mean that "All" Jehovah's Witnesses must be in great danger. Because of the "operation of error" that God justly sends upon the wicked. That means "ALL" Jehovah's Witnesses are headed for disaster and this FINAL "JUDGMENT" at God's hands. That's if I am left to believe the scripture you have quoted above.
And that would be a very ominous future for ALL Jehovah's Witnesses, who wickedly and unrepentantly continue to follow the "man of lawlessness", aka, Governing Body.
So if what you say is true, and God does "let the operation of error" go to Jehovah's Witnesses, then ALL OF THEM are affected. The prophecy would mean inevitably, Divine "Judgment" awaits "ALL" Jehovah's Witnesses, unless they repent. That's why I say, you know "neither the scriptures [you avidly quote], nor the power of God". (Matt. 22:29)
Please be advised, if what you say above has indeed occurred, and Jehovah's Witnesses have received of the "operation of error", then the Holy Scriptures assure us, they are "ALL" headed for "Judgment" with you, You Know, quite possibly leading the way.
Case closed.
bjc
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caballoSentado
Firstly, excuse the delay in answering… I was out of town.
YOU KNOW:
You say:
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The problem as I see it lies with your faith, or lack of. How can a person boast of being "in the truth" when in actuality their faith is determined by the actions of men that they are following? You merely changed from following one group of men to following another, with predictably equally unsatisfactory results.
--------------------------------------------------------------------I can tell you sincearly, my friend, that although this affair was a shock to me at first, my faith was always put in God. My problem was that maybe I had idealized our organization, I think that is no uncommon for a JW. That idealization made me believe that an organization on earth could measure up to Jehovah's standards, and that is no true in the end. I am convinced know that no man should put his faith on any such organization… It is love for God & Christ, and a sincere desire to please them what makes a person, when things like this happen, to examine his motives, to say to himself: Are you placing you faith in God or on a human system?, Do your care for God's will?… I had to ask that to myself…
You say:
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You are wrong about the Watchtower not being different than other religions. That's simply not true. In the case of other religions they see no problem at all with supporting various political institutions.
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I understand your point, but you give the answer my friend:-----------------------------------------------------------------
That's not to say that the Watchtower has not acted treacherously and hypocritically. They have
-------------------------------------------------------------------So, a sincere christian (any JW should be that) should try to please God, even if that action puts your relation with the organization at risk… I'd rather risk my relationship with the Society than my relationship with God & Christ… I cannot think of this UN affair in any other way….
You say:
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Perhaps what you are unaware of though is that there are numerous prophecies that call for many to be stumbled right before and during the end phase of this system. So as tragic as these events are there are not to be unexpected. It is leading up to the ultimate test of our faith.
-------------------------------------------------------------------My faith is in God, as I told you my friend. This stumbling has drawn me closer to God… I can tell you that my faith in the organisation is what has been broken…
As for my work in the organization, I have given countless hours, without being a bethelite, to work in our branch office for several years, taking time form my secular job & my family… I was totally convinced that I was in the truth…. Now I put my faith where it should have been in the first place…in God's word. I love my brothers & sisters in the organization….I just cannot love the organization again…
The truth is in the Bible, nowhere else. From now on my faith will not be determined by what the organization teaches, but by what the bible teaches…I think that is the real test of christian faith now.
Caballo Sentado
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bjc2012
Hi Caballo:
So, a sincere christian (any JW should be that) should try to please God, even if that action puts your relation with the organization at risk… I'd rather risk my relationship with the Society than my relationship with God & Christ… I cannot think of this UN affair in any other way….
I must agree.But your comment above does bring one important question to mind. At this point in your life, after discovering what you have about the WTS/UN-NGO Affair,
Do you personally feel you will be able to maintain your spiritual "relationship with God & Christ" while remaining a part of the "idolatrous" JW Organization, especially in view of the fact that you now have full knowledge of the GB/UN Affair? In other words, shouldn't you be "fleeing from idolatry", or in this case, "fleeing" from an "idolatrous" organization as God's Word directs? (Mark 13:14; 1 Corinthians 10:14)
bjc
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caballoSentado
to bjc2012:
I agree with you friend, sooner than later that is going to happen ..., I didn't think that was going to happen to me EVER, this are my first steps...soon I will have to walk by myself.I am reading ISOCF right now... I agree wholeheartedly with it. But love for my wife & friends is delaying for just sometime the predictable outcome