When will my daddy be resurrected?

by nibbled 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • nibbled
    nibbled

    From a discussion I tried to have with my mom, and an elder. Your thoughts warmly requested.

    Context:

    The Word of God says:

    "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished." — Revelation 20:5
    The Watchtower says:
    "The general resurrection takes place on earth during Christ’s Millennial Reign". — The Watchtower Reasoning from the Scriptures, rs pp. 333-340

    When will my daddy be resurrected?

    The scriptures describes those who "lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" as "the first resurrection" and says "the rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished." — Revelation 20:4,5 The Watchtower Reasons on the Scriptures Below is the excerpt from the Watchtower's Reasoning From the Scriptures for "Resurrection" and includes inline commentary.

    What prospects will await those raised to life on earth?

    Luke 23:43: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” (All the earth will be transformed into a paradise under the rule of Christ as King.)

    Rev. 20:12, 13: “I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. . . . They were judged individually according to their deeds.” (The opening of scrolls evidently points to a time of education in the divine will, in harmony with Isaiah 26:9. The fact that “the scroll of life” is opened indicates that there is opportunity for those who heed that education to have their names written in that scroll. Ahead of them will be the prospect of eternal life in human perfection.)

    See also pages 227-232, under “Kingdom.”

    "The opening of scrolls evidently points to a time of education in the divine will, in harmony with Isaiah 26:9. The fact that “the scroll of life” is opened indicates that there is opportunity for those who heed that education to have their names written in that scroll. Ahead of them will be the prospect of eternal life in human perfection." While the Watchtower teaches that these books "evidently point to a time of education", they must ignore that the opening of scrolls, or books, are mentioned through out the scriptures, clearly and repeatedly.

    • Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.
    • Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
    • Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
    • Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
    • Revelation 2:23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
    • Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
    • Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
    • Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
    • Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
    • Revelation 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
    These books are used to judge the dead, based on their deeds, and to reward those written in the book of life. Daniel shows the books being used prior to the thousand year reign, Matthew and Luke refer to being rewarded based on deeds and being written in heaven. Revelation reiterates that he searches hearts and minds and repays according to their deeds, rewarding those whose names are written in the book of life. There is the book of life, and the book of deeds, which are used to judge the dead.

    Will some be raised simply to have judgment pronounced and then be consigned to second death?

    What is the meaning of John 5:28, 29? It says: “All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” What Jesus said here must be understood in the light of the later revelation that he gave to John. (See Revelation 20:12, 13, quoted on page 337.) Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.” What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29a, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of Joh 5 verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment.

    Romans 6:7 and John 5:28,29 are not inconsistent, despite the assertion. Romans says he who has died has been acquitted from his sin. This verse was written in Greek (Aramaic) and the word rendered sin is hamartias. John and Revelation both say that the dead will be judged according to their deeds. Sin is something we inherited from Adam, and deeds are something which is our personal actions, despite having inherited sin. John and Revelation are also books written in Greek (Aramaic). The word rendered in John for deeds is erga, the same word which is used in Revelation.

    2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

    If you were to go through the Greek scriptures and swapped deeds for sin and sin for deeds, it is clear that they are not the same thing.

    "Therefore, just as deeds entered the world through one man, and death through deeds, and in this way death came to all men, because all deeded."

    “He who has died has been acquitted from his deeds.”

    "And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their sins."

    Further, Paul used both words in a letter to Timothy where he addresses both sin and judgment based on deeds:

    Remember, the sins [ hamartiai ] of some people are obvious, leading them to certain judgment. But there are others whose sins [ hamartiai ] will not be revealed until later. In the same way, the good deeds [ erga ] of some people are obvious. And the good deeds [ erga ] done in secret will someday come to light. — 1 Timothy 5:24,25

    John 5:28,29 reiterate precisely what the scriptures we just consider teach regarding the resurrection—the dead will stand before the throne and will be judged, some based on their deeds written in the books, and others whose names are written in the book of life will be resurrected to life.

    “All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

    Thus John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20:12,13 are in harmony, as both are the words of Jesus, the Word, the one who sits on the throne and judges the dead.

    I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades § gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. — Revelation 20:12,13

    Further, Jesus reassures us in the very next verse, "just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous". (John 5:30) Thus, the Watchtower's reasoning that "It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed" is in direct contradiction to Jesus' words that "the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."

    What does Revelation 20:4-6 indicate as to those who will be resurrected on earth?

    Rev. 20:4-6: “I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God . . . And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”

    The parentheses are used in NW and Mo to help the reader to connect what follows the parenthetical statement with what precedes it. As clearly stated, it is not “the rest of the dead” who share in the first resurrection. That resurrection is for those who rule with Christ for the thousand years. Does this mean that no others of mankind will live during the thousand years except the ones who rule in heaven with Christ? No; because, if such were the case, it would mean that there was no one on behalf of whom they were serving as priests, and their domain would be a desolate globe.

    Even the Watchtower teaches that people survive Armageddon, even if no one but just the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, to live during the thousand year reign. The scriptures indicate that there are more than just Jehovah's Witnesses who survive, as Daniel 7, referenced above, states regarding the thousand year reign after Armageddon:

    The other three beasts had their authority taken from them, but they were allowed to live a while longer… I saw someone like a son of mand coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence. He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. — Daniel 7:12-14

    Thus the scriptures reassure us that there is no concern "that there was no one on behalf of whom they were serving as priests, and their domain would be a desolate globe".

    Who, then, are “the rest of the dead”? They are all those of mankind who died as a result of Adamic sin and those who, though survivors of the great tribulation or those who may be born during the Millennium, need to be relieved of the death-dealing effects of such sin.—Compare Ephesians 2:1.

    The Watchtower clearly states that "the rest of the dead" "are those who died" however, they go on to say...

    In what sense do they not “come to life” until the end of the thousand years? This does not mean their resurrection. This ‘coming to life’ involves much more than merely existing as humans. It means attaining to human perfection, free from all effects of Adamic sin. Notice that the reference to this in Re 20 verse 5 occurs immediately after the preceding verse says that those who will be in heaven “came to life.” In their case it means life free from all effects of sin; they are even specially favored with immortality. (1 Cor. 15:54) For “the rest of the dead,” then, it must mean the fullness of life in human perfection.

    "This does not mean their resurrection." They reason "This ‘coming to life’ involves much more than merely existing as humans. It means attaining to human perfection, free from all effects of Adamic sin." Who ever said that anyone would be coming to life and yet still be under Adamic sin??? And if this does not mean their resurrection, then when is the resurrection?

    We should recall that Daniel shows that there is a court which sits just prior to Christ's coming and his kingdom rule on earth which judges all the people who would enter into the thousand year reign using the same books (Daniel 7:10,22 and Revelation 20:4) which are again referenced when the dead are judged after the thousand year reign. (Revelation 20:11-15) If the people entering into the thousand year reign have already been judged, why would they need to be judged again? Revelation 20:7-10 And if "this does not mean their resurrection" when exactly is this resurrection? The Word of God says:
    "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished." — Revelation 20:5

    The Watchtower says:

    "The general resurrection takes place on earth during Christ’s Millennial Reign". — The Watchtower Reasoning from the Scriptures, rs pp. 333-340
  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    The scriptures are the greatest aid and the greatest enemy to making stuff up.

  • spirituk
    spirituk

    BIBLE HAS EQUIVOCAL MEANING TO CONFUSE PEOPLE THATS WHY SOMETIMES SOME ARE RIGHT AND SOME ARE WRONG AND ALWAYS CONDRADICT EACH OTHER, WAKE UP AND THINK , WE LIVE IN 2013 -.-

  • nibbled
    nibbled

    What is equivocal about: "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished."???

    It seems pretty explicit to me.

    Hope you can find the caps lock key on your keyboard—typing in all caps is so 2012. :)

    Are you offering no hope for my seeing my father again?

    When you say "wake up" do you mean figuratively, literally, or spiritually?

    Do you enjoy any of the rich language of literature? Or is it all to confuse people like you view the scriptures?

  • spirituk
    spirituk

    Nothing will never happen . we are just men that live for a while and die forever ( wow i impressed myself here :p ) , like my dead dog that will never come back in any form.. religion is a creation of man .. if you study you will find that people from ancient years had the habit to create gods , something to hold on and to have hope .. bible is just bullshit , and its everything BUT love , killings massacres and other things .. any openminded person could see it ..look around you and askyourself if this is what god had in his mind ''creating us'' .. its all mind games..eventually if you study you will know

  • perfect1
    perfect1

    I am sorry, but your Daddy will not be resurrected.

    Consider seeing a grief counselor, it will help more than this.

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    ****The Watchtower says: "The general resurrection takes place on earth during Christ’s Millennial Reign". — The Watchtower Reasoning from the Scriptures, rs pp. 333-340****

    The book of Revelation @ 20:7 states:

    At the END of these 1000 years satan will be released ...etc verse 11 after that I saw a great and splendid throne (judgement) verse 12 I saw the dead, both great and small standing before the throne while book were opened (don't forget it's AFTER the millennium not during it) then the dead are judged according to the records.

    Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to ...Judgement !

    Your father is in the hands of ONE, who can read hearts and minds and came amongst us to give HIS LIFE for ALL who desire it.

    Shalom

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Sorry to hear about your father's death, I lost my dad last year also. He was a non practicing RC, however, Eternal life is the reward for all whose hearts are deemed worthy based on their circumstances, and responsibility of the gifts they were entrusted with. Rev20:12

    ***Beware then of useless murmuring, and keep your tongue from slander; because no secret word is without result, and a lying mouth destroys the soul. 12 Do not invite death by the error of your life, nor bring on destruction by the works of your hands; 13 because God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. 14 For he created all things that they might exist, and the generative forces of the world are wholesome, and there is no destructive poison in them; and the dominion of Hades is not on earth. 15 For righteousness is immortal. 16 But ungodly men by their words and deeds summoned death; considering him a friend, they pined away, and they made a covenant with him, because they are fit to belong to his party.***

  • pixel
    pixel

    I was reading this scripture yesterday and had the same questions. I will be back to read the whole thread.

  • nibbled
    nibbled

    Pterist we share the same understanding of the scriptures, and same hope of the Truth. The question posed was to my mom and (step) dad and they were unable to do anything but feed me the "Reasoning". I know the reasoning and was hoping to use the thought provoking question to get them to think. Alas, they believe the word of man (WT) over the Word of God. (My father passed when I was too young to even remember him. I'm sorry to hear of yours.)

    Pixel If you have questions I would love to discuss. It was on my mind as I had several friends who all at once lost their loved ones. I realized that I was free to explain to them the actual resurrection hope and when it happens, as opposed to what I was taught but could never quite understand (until I realized that was because it doesn't makes sense and contradicts the scriptures.)

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