you might find some tips on that at JWmatch.com :)
Do's and Dont's on debating JWs online
by Emery 37 Replies latest jw friends
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Phizzy
Thanks Emery for the thread, I agree we need to be so careful as we can put off a JW just on the cusp of waking up so so easily.
I know when I first started visiting this site and others before I left, I found even fun names like JDub or Dubbie to be a little offensive, not so much for reducing down the name "Jehovah" but more I felt it was an attack on me, as though I was a thick, ignorant person who these apostates could hang a label on.
The only problem is that we can be too careful,we need to challenge head on the false arguments, the lies, the lack of evidence and scriptural support etc etc that all the WT teaching suffers from. We cannot be over polite, or the JW is not challenged in any way.
Treading this awkward path is a difficult one, but I am sure we all wish to do our best to free as many as possible from the prison of false belief that JW's find themselves in.
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Emery
Yup Phizzy, I have been wanting to shed some light on this subject for quite awhile. I agree that you have to be firm and present the irrefutible evidence tactfully.
@jgnat, the first couple of "apostate" videos I encountered did not help me AT ALL. The common theme I always found was, "WITNESSES DONT BELIVE IN THE DIETY OF CHRIST! JOHN 1:1 IS A MISTRANSLATION" and these evangelicals harped so much about Jesus being God that I could not find anything to help me discover TTATT. Everything seemed to revolve around the Trinity doctrine or Free masons/illuminati conspiracies. The Witnesses of Jehovah video also didn't jive well with me as they kept using alien terms like, "Accept Christ into your lives" and "false prophets", and the tone of the video felt competely negative and riddled with evangelical propaganda. There wasn't much objectivity or any common ground to walk on in those videos. Even now that I am out, I wouldn't reference any JWs to that video.
The Snarky Apologist guy also takes it a bit far, throwing the NWT to the ground and making rude back-handed comments to the JWs watching his videos. One time I fact checked some scriptures he was using against JWs and found him taking things out of context. I found it funny when he would do everything mentioned and then end his videos with, "Listen Witnesses I am doing this for your own good, I am Christian, leave this cult!" I understand where he is coming from now and will agree that not all of his videos are terrible, but the evangelical approach enforced the "Us versus them" attitude in me.
E-watchman confused the f*** out of me. I was like, should I stay or should I go? Looking back now he was the gateway drug to my full apostasy haha. I think he still wants to believe something divine still exists within the organization and just can't let it go.
The online videos that were the most effective for me were; Ed Dunlap's testimony, Peter Gregerson's BRCI talk on the Faithful and Discreet Slave, the testimonies of the Dublin elders, Greg Stafford and Truth4Jw. When I finally watched the spanish interview of Ray Franz on YouTube, everything came crashing down. He was so loving and spoke very nicely about the witnesses, he even showed admiration for some of the Governing body members, I was in shock. I was expecting this guy to start spewing some venom and reveal that apostate bitterness -- my was I wrong. Franz was very professional, classy and only provided historical facts during the interview. After that interview I read C of C and the rest was history.
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LostGeneration
JWfacts.com and CoC are probably the two best sources to get a JW to look at if possible. CoC is tough because its just not available. JWfacts.com is awesome because the internet is always available.
Videos are good later on, but I think they are the wrong way to introduce TTATT initially.
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nugget
when debating with JWs I try to remember that the posts will be read by those who have never had anything to do with the organisation as well as exjws and current JWs. I firmly believe that the crazy talk should be left to the JWs and always try to be humerous, reasonable and respectful. Humerous to encourage others to read the posts, and reasonable to go against Jw misconceptions.
sometimes JWs can be so pompous, narrow minded, rude and have a tendancy to make sweeping generalizations so it can be a challenge not to end up in a rude exchange. But on the whole it is endless fun and great entertainment if done well.
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DaCheech
danny was harsh, and ticked off alot of people............... but, to his defense: the witnesses took everything away from him!!
put yourself in his shoes
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Londo111
I like Snarky’s videos and enjoy his humor, but I believe he is just preaching to the choir. Some who have never been JWs do more harm than good when talking to JWs. They do not truly understand the JW mindset, nor are they sensitive to the mind control.
I remember going to a door and a lady said to me, “You’re a cult.” I asked, “How so?” She said, “You’re a cult” and shut the door. In my mind, she had no case, just a slur.
Another man who was Pentecostal told me at the door, “You’re in a cult. You’re being brainwashed.” I asked, “Who is brainwashing me? How does that work?” He had no answers. I told him, “Basically you are using the word CULT to mean any group you don’t agree with.” And I still believe that is basically what how fundamentalist and charismatics use the word, to identify groups that have unorthodox doctrine.
It was only until I read Steven Hassan that I could finally get a comprehensive definition of what a cult was and how mind control worked.
What sometimes we fail to understand is that teachings are the poison in the wound, but until the arrow (mind control) is removed, they do not have the personal freedom to make decisions on what they will and won’t believe, for they cannot give anything a fair hearing. To remove this arrow takes skill that few of us really possess and sometimes we can do more harm than good.
Very few JWs will learn TTATT via trying to convince them of the Trinity, which is Doctrinal Enemy #1. What might be far more effective is to put that aside, and in a kind manner, take the Trinity brochure, then show them the misquotes of scholars and Apostolic Fathers in context. Seeing the Watchtower’s journalistic dishonesty is what really woke me up.
One must always find common ground as well. For instance, if you are a Christian who believes in the Trinity—first, this should be reserved to when the JW is waking up from the mind control. Then one must find common ground, establishing points like (1) You believe that Jesus is God’s Son (2) You believe that Jesus is a distinct person from his Father (3) You believe that the Father occupies a greater position than Jesus. And this common ground must be continually woven throughout the discussion.
Otherwise, hitting a JW up side the head with “Jesus is God” does nothing, because what they hear is “Jesus is his own Father”, which of course, makes little sense Scripturally. JWs are taught to defeat modalism, but some who subscribe to the Trinity in a dogmatic manner do little to dispel this.
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Emery
DaCheech, I understand completely. I can see how someone could go ape shit after leaving the organization, but acting like that does more damage to our credibility as former members than it does to the Watchtower. Now if people want to be angry and get some payback, call up your local news station and tell them your story. Don't go on a rampage on unsuspecting Jdubs browsing the web.
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DaCheech
I'm not condoning him, I just asked for people to understand the fact that the witlesses took EVERYTHING from him (family and physical)
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Ding
I think Londo111 makes great points regarding discussing doctrine.
Sometimes I have said, "If you really want to discuss _____ (doctrine), I'll be glad to discuss it with you, but I'll only do it if you're sure you want to get into it. I'm not trying to shove anything down your throat."
Some have backed off the issue; others have said that they want to discuss it.
I have found that getting permission first like that goes a long way toward avoiding the usual hostility.
Even if they aren't persuaded that the WT is wrong on the point, they appreciate the respect shown and are willing to talk about other matters rather than terminating the dialogue in anger.