I've Come To Realize That "Facts" Don't Mean Much If A Person Refuses To Accept Them

by minimus 160 Replies latest jw friends

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Facts:

    I won't offer a dictionary definition, since Apognophos is talking about how people can have their own definition of the word.

    I will say that the factual truth of a belief (or a statement) does not change with the number of people who believe it. Santa Claus is not more factually true for pre-schoolers than for teens. Generally, the theory of evolution is not more true as more people believe it, nor would it be less true if less people believed it. It is either true or false.

    Some people start picking it apart and claim to (or actually do) find a false statement within and then attempt to throw the whole theory out based on that small "fact" being wrong.

    Tying back to the title of this thread, if someone states that something unproveable is a fact in order to feel that they have won some argument, then it just goes to show that "Facts" don't mean much if a person refuses to accept them.

    You can be peaceful or minimize name-calling with people that refuse to face the facts. It isn't really approaching an olive branch in sincerity when you want every last vestige of it's symbolic meaning to spell out that it means you can state ridiculous things as if they are facts and the one who offered the olive branch won't even question what you said.

    For some people, the facts of their life outweight the facts of science. For thousands of years, there was no science; only personal experience. Man got by in the world according to that experience. So to expect everyone living today to re-define "fact" to mean something abstract like 'objectively verifiable tenets, propositions or statements that are internally inconsistent' is not reasonable in light of the fact that we're all just hairless apes trying to make sense of the world around us.

    If the above is not just poking fun, as I expect it is, the 'life-experience' definition of 'fact' is really the abstract one while the dictionary definition is a solid one.

    Let's say that life experience taught our ancestors that a tiger is hiding in the bushes, instead of understanding that the wind can sometimes move the bushes. Those ancestors survived longer than the ones who refused to believe the idea that a tiger was factually hiding in the bushes and only believed that this was only one possibility. The second group did pretty good but were occasionally eaten by tigers. More of the first group got to spread their DNA.

    So, genetically, we inherited the false belief that a tiger was always hiding in the bushes instead of the factual belief that it was a rare event. Just because it was wrong doesn't mean we didn't benefit from our beliefs. But eventually, man had to stop being afraid to walk in the jungle and had to overcome his inherited ideas about facts. Otherwise, we would have stayed just those hairless apes.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I want to sum up my last statement in shorter terms:

    When you want to offer up your version of facts, great. Do so.
    But in order to sit at the adult table, state your claim and we will take a look at your claim.

  • Emery
    Emery

    People change their minds when a crisis happens, whether it be: emotional, economical, financial, health, spiritual, etc.

    From my experience, it first takes a JW to have their ass kicked emotionally by either the elders, friends, or family. When this happens, especially to the Yes men of the borg, they start waking up. When they lose their spiritual status, paradise and/or advantages of being in the org they will become more critical.

    Politically speaking? Not very familiar with it, but I have seen people change their political views when something negatively affects them aswell like; wars, laws, taxes, etc.

    IMO it all bascially revolves around the element of injustice hitting close to home before the facts are looked at. I know this is not the case for everyone, but it seems to be the trend for change.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I don't think its about Facts as much as how people interpret them.

    Look at geocentricity VS helicentricity.

    BOTH had facts on their side, it was how they were being intrepreted that caused the difference.

    At one point geocentricity had more facts on it's side even.

    A fact (derived from the Latinfactum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    So to expect everyone living today to re-define "fact" to mean something abstract like 'objectively verifiable tenets, propositions or statements that are internally inconsistent' is not reasonable in light of the fact that we're all just hairless apes trying to make sense of the world around us.

    Many people don't believe that fact ;)

    In any event, if every person had their own definition of a word, communication would be impossible. The very notion that people can each define words as they please undermines the foundation of language that we use every day.

    An olive branch is simply an agreement to disagree and an affirmation of mutual respect, two concepts which I have not seen you demonstrate an understanding of.

    No, it isn't. Perhaps you haven't seen me demonstrate an understanding of that because that's not actually what I wrote about what I was trying to accomplish.

    But at the same time, one lesson I learned from being a Witness is that I should never be arrogantly confident that now I have the truth, that now I know all the facts. It was a very humbling experience to learn how ignorant I truly was, and that I had allowed others to tell me what the facts were.

    No one is claiming to know all the facts, and when you were a JW they weren't telling you facts.

    You can make whatever subjective point you want. However it won’t make words mean what you want them to. The fact is that dictionaries are right and people who apply their own meaning to words are wrong. They may be happy in their ignorance but they remain ignorant. Facts are rather inflexible things. That is why they can be relied upon.

    Bingo!

    At one point geocentricity had more facts on it's side even.

    Geocentricity had a LACK of data on it's side, not a plethora of facts.

  • minimus
    minimus

    How about 1+1=2??

    Could that equation be questioned too?

  • tec
    tec

    Some dictionary definitions change as more is learned... or as public opinion changes. A while back, some people did not like the defintion given under atheism in a particular dictionary... and so disputed it in favor of the more recent defintion of atheism. So sometimes the dictionary definition is just an agreed upon definition of something that is actually subjective, and changes as norms change.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Geocentricity had a LACK of data on it's side, not a plethora of facts.

    Hindsight being 20-20.

    fact [fækt] n

    1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed 2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation 3. a piece of information get me all the facts of this case 4. (Law) Law(often plural) an actual event, happening, etc., as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge 5. (Philosophy) Philosophy a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement (Law) after (orbefore) the factCriminal law after (or before) the commission of the offence an accessory after the fact as a matter of fact, in fact, in point of fact in reality or actuality fact of life an inescapable truth, esp an unpleasant one

    the fact of the matter the truth

    There are of course irefutable facts,like mathematical facts for example.

  • minimus
    minimus

    Here's a simple example.

    A person is dirty and STINKS! The person smells HORRIBLE! People around gag. You mention how dirtyman stinks to high heaven and the person there says, "Prove it!"

    What is there to prove??

    Still, the "fact" is that someone is filthy dirty and stinks, yet you have someone disputing it....just because. (They prove just to be a waste of time)

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    It never ceases to amaze me what positions people will take to defend the notion that their invisible, unproveable notions should carry as much (or any, really) weight as testable, functional reality.

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