Jesus - Michael or God?

by Dawn 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  hooberus

  "Jesus, means Saviour, and we are carried forward from the mere word to the exalted official position, on account of which he can 'save to the uttermost all who come unto God by him.'His position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth.' Hence it is said, 'Let all the angels of God worship him'; [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hense Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they.'

  Watchtower 11/1879, p. 4, reprints p. 48. brackets in original text.
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  Will Power

  You see, Russell would most definitely be DF'd for his views. If he was the famous FDS as is alluded to, then it would be the witnesses of today who are the apostates!!!
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  Bang

  1 Thessalonians 4:16 says nothing about Jesus being Michael - they sure can squeeze meanings where they need to.

  It says the Lord himself will come down from heaven (I'll take that as Jesus), with a loud command (I'll take that as being the Father saying now is the time), with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God (sounds as though at the time it's announced and proclaimed).
• 

  Will Power

  Bang:
  the WatchTower uses 1Thes 4:16 (search Michael on CD) as one of the proof passages showing that it is Jesus who is descending with the call of the archangel. (I see the angel sounding the trumpet as the king enters - figuratively of course)
  BUT
  they put an asterisk after the word Lord* who is descending.... the footnote is *(16) I think
  The footnote says Jehovah!
  THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE. They fly on a whim and a prayer? and are supposedly the only ones worshipping the right god the right way.

  Where is YOU KNOW when you need a good "scripture" explanation?
• 

  LittleToe

  It should be highlighted that although several commentaries allude to Michael possibly being Jesus, these self same commentaries also acclaim Him as God.

  There are three parts to the description of the Lord's voice in 1Th.4:16, the last part rarely being highlighted (emphasis mine):

  (NWT) because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

  (ASV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

  Commentary on this verse
  Wesley:
  With a shout - Properly, a proclamation made to a great multitude. Above this is, the voice of the archangel; above both, the trumpet of God; the voice of God, somewhat analogous to the sound of a trumpet.

  Gill:
  with the voice of the archangel; so Michael is called, in Jud.1:9 with which compare Rev.12:7 and who perhaps is no other than Christ himself, who is the head of all principality and power; and the sense be, that Christ shall descend from heaven with a voice, or shall then utter such a voice, as will show him to be the archangel; or as the Syriac version renders it, "the head", or "prince of angels"; and which whether, it will be an articulate voice, such as was expressed at the grave of Lazarus; or a violent clap of thunder, which is the voice of God; or the exertion of the power of Christ, is not certain: it is added, and with the trump of God; called "the last trump", 1Co_15:52 because none will be blown after it, and may be the same with the seventh trumpet, Rev_11:15 and here the trump of God, because blown by his order; or by Christ himself, who is God, and so be the same with the voice of the archangel; and these figurative expressions are used, to set forth the grandeur and magnificence in which Christ will come; not in that low, mean, and humble form in which he first came, but with great glory, and marks of honour and respect; with angels shouting, trumpets blowing, and saints rejoicing.
• 

  Will Power

  LittleT

  Who/what is Gill?

  What do you think about the WT footnote saying that this "Lord" is Jehovah, all the while using the explanation that the Lord is Jesus which is also Michael the Archangel. Indirectly, witnesses worship an angel which they & the bible say is forbidden. Witness angel worship is about as hypocritical as they can get. Way worse than the UN thing.

  ***it-2 393-4 Michael***
  [Who Is Like God?]

  “……………At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord* Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts HIM as descending from heaven with a commanding call……..”

  edited to add WT commentary.
• 

  Will Power

  Dawn: Your question might also be Jesus - Michael or God or Devil?

  GOD'S KINGDOM OF 1,000 YRS HAS APPROACHED
  PG 156
  "What now? Are Satan and his demons hurled back into the abyss? To do so would imply that they were to be let loose again, JUST AS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF WAS LET LOOSE FROM THE ABYSS, and the symbolic locusts and the wild beast...."

  The Aid Book describes the Abaddon (devil to sans doublespeak people) as Jesus Christ.
  Their tricky formula shows Jesus = Michael = Abaddon = Jehovah.
  therefore their formula also says: Jehovah = Jesus = Michael = Devil
  or in other words God = Angel = Devil.

  This is TRUE WT worship. This is not made up. The WT prints this all on their own. If you really want to know what the WT teaches you have to look at more than their fluff. Would really like to hear a JW finally answer this charge, I wouldn't be surprised if they screamed "typo!" But 25 years are not typos.

  Word # 1943 Strongs: 'hovah = god of mischief.

  But to each his own. Freedom of religion means just that, but on principal I do resent what they have done to "christianity" slyly twist it to mean the opposite of what christians believe, or what they themselves THINK they believe.

  It reminds me of all their "official reasons" & objections to the celebration of Christmas.
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Dawn,

  Try starting in Hebrews. At Hebrew's 1:5 it says, "To which of the angels did God ever say, 'you are my son, this day I have begotten you', or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son'

  Again Heb 1:8 "But of the Son he [God the father] says, 'Thy throne O God is for ever and ever'

  Hebrews makes it clear that Jesus was not an angel. Nothing in the bible says the Jesus was an angel. WHy would Jesus have two names?

  Also Philippians 1:6 says "who, though he [Jesus] was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself..."

  some text translate it this why "who, though he was by nature God, did not deem equality with God a thing to be clung to..."

  YERUSALYIM
  "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
  [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
• 

  LittleToe

  WillPower:
  Sorry, Gill is John Gills Exposition on the Entire Bible

  The footnote in the NWT Reference Bible highlights that in some 16th century translations on the original Greek into Hebrew, the translators chose the name Jehovah as a sunstitute for Kurios (Lord).

  To qualify a couple of things:
  The JW's do not teach that Jehovah = Jesus.
  They also do not teach that Jesus, or angels, should be worshipped.
  In fact, on this last point, they denigrate him, IMHO, and translate the Greek word for worship as anything but, even though there are texts which support this action.

  Not forgetting the fact that Michael means "Who is like God".
• 

  Will Power

  Hello LT
  I've been away, but would like to respond to your last comment.
  Not that I care, more for others that read these posts...
  you said
  

  To qualify a couple of things:
  The JW's do not teach that Jehovah = Jesus.

  How do you rectify then the fact that the WT literature does NOT know who God is when they boast out of their mouth that they do?

  Follow the explanations for 1 thes 4:16 and Rev 22:12 compare with scriptures cited to prove Jesus is Michael. They have flip-flopped on "who is coming" over and over. Read Aid book about the Abaddon.
  They "prove" by circular reasoning that Jesus is an angel and not to be worshiped and they also state at different times that Jesus & Jehovah perform the exact same "comings" in the above 2 passages - depending on what they are trying to prove at the time. i.e. Jesus is coming when they say he is an angel, but Jehovah is coming when they explain he is the alpha/omega. They clearly do not know or are deliberatly misleading. Either way - to tell people "they alone know" is a lie or to deliberatly mislead is what the bible warns is of the devil.
  By their fruits you shall know and their literature is their biggest and most important fruit! Kind of like a watermelon laced with bad vodka.