Looking for feedback on this approach

by NCC-1701 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • NCC-1701
    NCC-1701

    Here's something I've brought up into conversation with a couple of Witnessess and I was curious about what other thought.

    Let's say a Witness goes into a coffee shop and sits between an Athiest and a Christian.

    The Witness starts a conversation with the athiest about the Bible. The athiest poses the question about the reliability of the Bible. The Witness explains that the Bible is completely trustworthy because of it's historical accuracy, meticulous transmission, etc.

    The athiest says that's interesting and thanks him for the information.

    The Witness then turns to the Christian and begins the same conversation he had with the athiest. The Christian explains that he shares his view of the accuracy and reliability of the Bible. Later, the Witness shares a scripture from the New Testament that has the name Jehovah in it. The Christian says that's an interesting translation and that none of the existing Greek manuscripts that we have today contain the Divine Name. The Christian then asks the Witness why the Name should be translated from the Greek Kurious. The Witness then says that he believes that the Name was written in the original Christian Greek Scriptures but that copyists, over a period of a couple of hundred years, replaced the Name with Kurious. He believes this was an attempt by the churches to hide the Divine Name. The Christian then asks if he knows of any documented evidence to support this supposed change in the manuscirpts. The Witness says (and I have heard it from one) that currently there is no documented evidence, but we are confident that some time in the future, it will be found.

    Meanwhile, the athiest, who has been listening in on the converstation, says to the Witness, "Hold on, didn't you just tell me that the Bible is completely accurate and reliable. How then can you now say that changes have been made and still maintain that the Bible we have today is accurate?"

    The Christian then asks, "If something as important as God's name has been removed from original the Greek scriptures and you don't have a trail of evidence to that effect, then what else may have been changed in the Bible that you don't know about? Is it then possible that all the written accounts of the resurrection of Jesus have been altered?"

    It seems to me that the Witnesses want it both ways. I don't know how you argue for absolute trustworthiness of the Bible while at the same time holding that it has been altered. When I used this with a Witness, he at least a little bit, conceded that I had a point.

    I was wondering if any one else had tried this and if it had any validity.

    Thanks. You've been a "great crowd"

  • cofty
    cofty
    It seems to me that the Witnesses want it both ways.

    Its a very good point.

    In a similar way I used to find the missing verses intersting - you know the ones that contain just a pair of square brackets in the NWT. The study bible explains that these are missing in all extant manuscripts. I used to wonder why god would allow even one word to be lost. If he inspired it why can't he preserve it?

  • Kudra
    Kudra

    Great scenario -I'll try it out with my mom if I ever can.

  • nolongerconfused
    nolongerconfused

    good luck with that one...

    what i mean is, the regular JW will shut you up, put his hand up and cut you off...they are so indoctrinated...WTS all the way for them and anything different or challenging is not acceptable!

    however, hopefully you run into a JW that has some logic and free thinking

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    I think nolongerconfused is realistic about this. However - raising the inconsistency about arguing for infallibility of scripture while admitting that God allowed corruption is a classic way to cause the mind of a JW to spin. It might work with an open-minded JW who sees it online and has some time to process it, rather than being forced to confront it in a coffee-shop setting (where a turtle-like back-in-one's-shell response is more likely).

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    The JW mind won't get it, its a one way street. Their way is the only way you can go. Check out this paragraph from the latest WT on how to convert an atheist....then consider how stupid it is in light of the massive amount of information control the WTS exerts over its members.

    CAUTION, your head may explode after reading...

    Scenario 2: In our witnessing work,
    we meet those who doubt that God exists.
    For example, a person might tell us
    that he is an atheist. Instead of letting
    that comment stop the conversation, we
    could respectfully ask how long he has
    been an atheist and what caused him
    to adopt that view. After listening to his
    answers and complimenting him on giving
    the matter serious thought, we could
    ask if he felt that it would be wrong to
    read material that presented evidence
    that life was created
    .

    If the householder is open-minded, he would likely say
    that it would be unreasonable to refuse
    to look at such evidence
    .We could then
    offer him either the brochure Was Life
    Created? or the one entitled The Origin of
    Life—Five QuestionsWorth Asking. Tactful
    questions, kindly asked, can act as a key
    that opens a person’s heart to the good
    news.

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    I may be completely off base here, but I thought there was documented evidence of at least 134 changes made by the Sopherim. This is noted in the NWT Reference Bible, as well as other non-JW sites on the internet.

    For example:

    http://www.oocities.org/hebrew_roots/html/hr-2-1-02.html

    http://www.biblestudysite.com/32.htm

    http://livingtheway.org/sopherim.html

    http://www.faith-once-delivered.org/pages/5-134-emendations.php

    The evidence apparently comes from the first page of the Massorah.

    I don't personally know a whole lot about this, except that this explains 134 places in the NT.

    But, yes, you make a valid point.

  • irondork
    irondork

    g

    Jehovah's name was removed! Evidence will be found in the future!

    New World Translation... accurate... meticulous...

    Governing body... annointed! Annointed! ...........ANNOINTED!!!!!

  • NCC-1701
    NCC-1701

    Leaving quietly wrote

    "I thought there was documented evidence of at least 134 changes made by the Sopherim."

    I have read about that in the NWT reference bible and have looked at some other references about it. It's been a while so I should look into it again.

    In my scenario, I probably should have said there's no documented trail of changes in the New Testament.

    Thanks.

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    Yeah, that's probably a better thing to say since the Masoretic Text is in Hebrew for the OT. The NWT says 'hey, we'll put in Jehovah whereever the author quoted the Hebrew scriptures and the Hebrew originally had the Tetragrammaton', and Paul apparently quoted a lot from the original Hebrew texts.

    Interesting wikipedia article the changes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text (look under Scribal emendations)

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