TEC Documentary hypothesis

mP

Continuing on our mini discussing at

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

Julius Wellhausen's contribution was to order these sources chronologically as JEDP, giving them a coherent setting in the evolving religious history of Israel, which he saw as one of ever-increasing priestly power. Wellhausen's formulation was:

the Yahwist source ( J ) : written c. 950 BC in the southern Kingdom of Judah.
the Elohist source ( E ) : written c. 850 BC in the northern Kingdom of Israel.
the Deuteronomist ( D ) : written c. 600 BC in Jerusalem during a period of religious reform.
the Priestly source ( P ) : written c. 500 BC by Kohanim (Jewish priests) in exile in Babylon.

While the hypothesis has been increasingly challenged by other models in the last part of the 20th century, its terminology and insights continue to provide the framework for modern theories on the origins of the Torah. [2]

tec

There are a lot of hypothesis and opinions out there, mP. This is just one of them.

I'm not entirely sure what you want to continue to discuss about this in particular?

Peace,

tammy

mP

tec: There are a lot of hypothesis and opinions out there, mP. This is just one of them.

Mp:

Its the one favoured by the majority of scholars. Thats just a silly response, especialy given the aforementioned fact.

TEC:

I'm not entirely sure what you want to continue to discuss about this in particular?

mP:

I was referring to the fact that Gen 1 & 2 give different orders and accounts for creation. You said one was a summary, but i replied does not apply here. You can see for youself if you read both chapters and write down the major events of when animals, man, woman, plants, etc were created.

mP

Plants were created before humans.	Plants were created after humans.
Genesis 1:11-13, 27-31 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so .... And the evening and the morning were the third day. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them .... And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.	Genesis 2:4-9 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth ... And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Plants were created before humans.

Plants were created after humans.

Genesis 1:11-13, 27-31: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so .... And the evening and the morning were the third day.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them .... And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:4-9: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth ... And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html

mP

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html

First Account (Genesis 1:1-2:3)	Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)
Genesis 1:25-27 (Humans were created after the other animals.) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image. Genesis 1:27 (The first man and woman were created simultaneously.) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.	Genesis 2:18-19 (Humans were created before the other animals.) And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. Genesis 2:18-22 (The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.) And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

First Account (Genesis 1:1-2:3)

Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)

Genesis 1:25-27 (Humans were created after the other animals.)

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 1:27 (The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:18-19 (Humans were created before the other animals.): And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Genesis 2:18-22 (The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.): And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Terry

The most glaring example of two completely different sources dovetailed into one myth is the twin Noah accounts.

I'm always surprised at the shocked faces when you tell people that the 2nd account requires 7 of the clean and 2 of the unclean animals on the Ark.

(This is pre-Law of Moses so there was no definition of Clean and Unclean. ) Have people never read their bibles?

tec

Its the one favoured by the majority of scholars. Thats just a silly response, especialy given the aforementioned fact.

Yes, well, there are a lot of scholars with various opinions and hypothesis, based on other opinions and hypothesis. There is no guarantee that these are correct. So I do not tend to put my faith in scholars. Which is not to say that I cannot learn something from them.

But when it comes to God, His Truth is Christ. So I'll look to Him.

I was referring to the fact that Gen 1 & 2 give different orders and accounts for creation. You said one was a summary, but i replied does not apply here. You can see for youself if you read both chapters and write down the major events of when animals, man,

woman, plants, etc were created.

I said one could be 'like a summary'. And one could be the more detailed version, or the version that deals with a specific happening.

The account of Adam and Eve deals with the incident of the 'fall of man'.

Two different things going on.

If you are suggesting that there are two different authors, or that one culture adopted some of what another culture wrote... even then, no big deal. Truth can be carried from culture to culture, and from time to time. Along the way, some things can be added, and some things taken away.

I am not sure what you are suggesting though, so perhaps you could summarize?

Peace,

tammy

mP

TEC

I said one could be 'like a summary'. And one could be the more detailed version, or the version that deals with a specific happening.

The account of Adam and Eve deals with the incident of the 'fall of man'.

Two different things going on.

mP:

Forget the extra details simply write down the order in point form. The list should only include animals, plants, man and woman, light etc, then compare the two... the are very much different. Sure your extra commentary about the snake etc is again more details but that does not satisfy the contradictory record of creation.

The fact there are two separate stories, show that they couldnt keep their facts straight. How exactly do you explain that Jesus didnt correct this mistake ? As Terry mentioned there are many other double stories that are contradicgtory in Genesis for the same reason.

In summary one set of stories is from the Judea and hte other from the ten tribes in the north. To keep both sides happy both stories had to be kept in some form. There are many books about this. This shows the bible is not perfect, it is the work of man no input from a greater god. Just plain old simple but literate men who tried their best to understand their world. For this reason they made up ideas like they were selected by god even though history shows they were small nobodies. God never helped the jews, the holy land is a desert, hardly a great prize etc.

tec

I hope you don't think I am defending a 'perfect' bible theory. I am aware that the bible is not perfect. How could it be? It has been written, translated, passed down, re-written, etc... by men. Not all of it is inspired. Not all of it is literal. So you will not get an argument from me that it is perfect.

As for the two accounts... Adam was brought into the Garden (a spiritual place) and what occurs in there is spiritual. God did not grow a literal tree of knowledge of good and bad. I'd be curious to know what that fruit literally looks like, otherwise, lol. The tree is either the symbol or spirtual equivalent of the knowledge of good and evil. Eating of its 'fruit' gains one that knowing of good and evil. So this is not a literal tree. And this account deals more with the spiritual. (symbolic, some others would say)

How exactly do you explain that Jesus didnt correct this mistake ?

That assumes a) it is meant to be read as you are reading it, b) that there was a mistake, c) that it was a matter of concern or importance to any of the people there in coming to God in the first place, d) that His job here was to correct all mistakes in the written texts. That was not His task. He did not teach us to follow the texts, but rather to follow HIM. But to be clear, he did speak against the scribes and teachers of the law... for this very reason.

It is not the bible that is the truth, word, image of God. It is not the bible that gives life. Christ is the Word, Image, Truth, and Life. He teaches as the Spirit.

Peace to you,

tammy

tec

Terry, that is interesting. Never noticed that. Curious about it though.

Peace,

tammy

TEC Documentary hypothesis

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