what captain points out is just one of the ways the watchtower is suffering, add the money drying up and the lawsuits, and they are in serious trouble.
Why I think (in a nutshell) why this org is approaching collapse
by cptkirk 32 Replies latest jw experiences
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punkofnice
The nutters have taken over the WBT$.
I hope they go down in flames. I really do.
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cptkirk
May as well tell you all now, my father is an elder. If that explains some things. In other words, I was never very active with the org but I would get active then go away and do my own thing with my other life, then i'd come back again, cycle back and forth. The irony was the fact that when I finally did what a good jw is supposed to do, and got really zealous (didn't last long) but anyway, that is ironically when the walls came down. I assume a lot of the abuses were taking place the entire time, but i never really was that involved in the years previous to that, so my point of view towards the religion was very idealistic and naive (because like i said i never really got really involved until the end). as i spent time really getting to know different types of people, whether they were women in the org that i knew were being mistreated, or worldly people that i would have never otherwise gotten to know, i started to realize people in general, regular people, in many cases, are some of the strongest, most intellectually driven, deep people....that really woke me up to a lot....and i think that was the beginning of what woke me up to how disjointed the religion itself was. i expected the world to trample on people, but not "the truth".
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Quendi
Thanks, cptkirk, for starting this thread. Some posters have compared the current situation in the organization with the ships Pequod, which chased Moby Dick, and the HMS Bounty under the notorious Captain Bligh (who actually was, despite his shortcomings as a commander, an incredible sailor). I think of the WTS as more like the old USSR, an “evil empire” which eventually imploded due to its own flawed structure.
The WTS is a religious dictatorship and has been since 1917 when Joseph Rutherford got control of its machinery. He purged the Society’s directors who opposed him and then slowly but surely gained control over the individual congregations of the International Bible Students. By 1938, the system of congregations electing their own officers had been done away with. Instead, the WTS directly appointed the men who oversaw congregation activities. That meant those who had privileges weren’t answerable to the congregations at all, but only to Brooklyn headquarters.
There have been changes and refinements down through the decades: setting up bodies of elders, creation of a “Governing Body” and such, but real control remained vested in Brooklyn and exercised through field officers whom Brooklyn appointed. In many ways, the WTS operated much like the old USSR did and in the process committed many human rights abuses. The practice of disfellowshipping and its accompanying shunning operated much like the old Soviet gulag camps. Dissidents and other undesirables were isolated from the main population where they could be tortured by judicial committees that were empowered to grant absolution and reinstatement. Any who objected to this arrangement would receive the same punishment. Control was extended over individual Witnesses to include even the most private and intimate aspects of life. A herd mentality was created and fostered while “independent thinking” was condemned as being satanic in origin and dangerous to the well-being of the membership.
But just as the USSR eventually became too bulky and unwieldy to sustain itself, so I believe, as cptkirk does, that the WTS is reaching that point. The organization is suffering a “brain drain” as its best and brightest people are either purged or seek refuge in the outside world. The organization’s leadership, which once contained men who had some education and were somewhat innovative in their thinking, now is nothing of the kind. Reforms are rejected out of hand. The organization has stagnated while the rest of the world is evolving socially and technologically. Fear and paranoia dominate its thinking. Resistance to Governing Body directives is becoming harder to suppress. I think that just as the USSR could not solve the crises which beset it on all sides and ignominiously collapsed, this cult will suffer the same fate.
Quendi
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problemaddict
Caserious,
Honestly man, every time I want to make a point it seems you have made the identical one. We are going to have to meet sometime.
I agree with what you said regarding Scientology. I just finished "Going Clear", and I would highly recommend the book. The similarities are amazing. Sure the JW's may not bug your phones or encourage abortions at the risk of disconnection (their "disfellowshipping"), but the end tactics are very similar, with less evil attached. Yet truthfully, Scientology continues to grow. Its a "whatever works for you" kind of thing. And Scientology will have the good sense to get rid of their space opera and some of the more crazy aspects of their religion which will be reserved for only a few at the top. They will do this because to focus on the small bit of good, and somewhat more reasonable traits of the church (cult), is what will keep them in the green.
JW's I think will continue to survive. They aren't going anywhere. Our collective experience is still so small that it can't form realization of a trend. With the society unwilling to devulge statistics of disfellowshipping, DA'ing, and so many other things, we can only read from the margins. We can't be dogmatic. So while their growth basically is just above population growth, they are savy enough to make some adjustments, slowly eek away from the more crazy doctrine, and stick around. That is just the truth.
It is interesting to me that Scientology has caught the attention of the population at large. Probably because of the celebrity factor, and the extreme cases of abuse not just in theory or perception, but in practice. In practice at the highest levels. They are much smaller than JW's and have many similar enforcements.
Ethics comittee's = Elders/JC's
SP's (suppresive persons or "Declared a Supressive Person") = Apostate
PTS (Potential Trouble Source) = Kind of like reproving.
Disconnected = Disfellowshipped.
They were in many ways contemporary groups although their philosophys are very different. JW's are like Scientology "light" in aspects of community. Yet Scientology gets the press on the crazy. JW's get a pass from the public at large.
Why do you guys think that is? Why can our dissenters not get an article in the New Yorker, or a tell all book including independant research on Rutherford and the birth of disfellowshipping through Olyn Moyle? These seem like compelling stories even outside our collective understanding.
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Quendi
I believe a major reason JW “dissenters” go unnoticed is because very, very few of them have celebrity status. Think about it. While there have been entertainers, actors, musicians, star athletes and the like who have become Witnesses, most abandoned those professions once they got baptized. So they had dropped out of the public’s sight and were no longer in the limelight. If any of them eventually left the organization, their anonymity meant that anything they had to say against the organization went unnoticed.
It has been otherwise with Scientologists. High-profile members have retained that status, for the most part. So if any of them decides to agitate, what they say and do gets coverage in both print and electronic media. Sometimes it is a disgruntled spouse or partner who makes waves as Tom Cruise’s recent problems show. But in any event, a celebrity Witness is almost an oxymoron and so we won’t read about any problems.
Quendi
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cptkirk
I think there are multiple reasons. I know that some will express in a disgruntled and satisfactory manner that "they are just too insignificant and nobody cares"....thats semi true, it holds some truth, but only in the fact that there is some degree of relativism(in comparison to something the size of the catholic church). I think a lot of it has to do with choice(and that is where being a born in gets tricky). It's just like if you know there are some bad elements in town so you stay away from them, make sure not to aggitate them etc. and they leave you alone. But, if you go and decide you want to hang out with these people and then something bad happens to you, it is much less likely to garner much sympathy-- as it would if you were minding your own business and boom they gang mugged you.
If I would have read what you typed maybe 5 years ago, I would have blown it off as total lunacy. I started to get an inkling though of just how bad it used to be when someone at the kh told me that they used to not let people close the doors on them, and that they would ram their bags and or foot into the door, and use it as a wedge to get at the householder like an attack dog or something. i asked myself if "faith" ever actually had anything to do with this religion to begin with, other than in situations that they couldn't control anyway,so they thought hey, we knew we would get some use out of this word at some point. maybe the boys at bethel will return to having faith now that they are selling off all the property. same idea right? well we are losing everything, so hey, lets see about this faith thing again shall we? and yet they bash the younger people in the org to no end, for the same behavior.
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wha happened?
I think someone posted about Japan here and the many reasons they have gone from rapid growth, to flat, to declining. Some of the reasons cited apply here as well
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Sulla
Interesting thread. Couple thoughts.
First, I disagree with the idea that things are getting worse for the org. The rate of increase may be down, but the idea that the org. is headed down... well, how about we see some data. Even in a catastrophe like Japan, we are talking about very slight decreases in actual numbers. Branches are opened, in part, on forecasted growth as well as realized growth; so closing a few down is not necessarily a sign of near defeat.
Talk about how all the good ones are leaving is simple nostalgia. Everybody always things things were better back in the day, but things were just about exactly as shitty as they are now. It's human nature. Doesn't mean anything.
The American religious scene has been quite fractured for a very long time. You might simply expect the JW share of the religious pie to remain constant, even though the size of the pie seems to be decreasing. The way I read the Pew data, this looks to be the case: fewer religious people in the US means fewer new JW converts.
The JWs have always been a high-control group. You think it's bad now, but it is about the same as it ever was. Back in the day, they would say, "Show up for a week-long convention, each day lasting from dawn 'til dusk," and they did it. Now, that's some control, kids.
There was never a golden age of JW theological thought. It was always crazy. Same as ever.
So, in my opinion, nothing to see here. Except for a little decrease in the rate of increase. The real question is how Herd and the boyz manage the conspicuous lack of Armageddon. That's the core value proposition of the JWs -- which is going away. But you can see they are working on it hard and, in my guess, will come up with something that enables them to keep 80% of their numbers over the next twenty years. Everybody says the GB are dummies, but they're not: they know the mind of the JW better than anyone. They will figure it out.
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EmptyInside
I wish it was heading for collapse. I hardly go to meetings anymore,once a month or so,but I still talk to Witness family and a Witness at work.
My observation is that many are just burned out. The demands of everyday life,besides, being a Witness,is getting to be a bit much. If one didn't have mental health issues,going in,well,they do now,with all the strain.
Meeting attendance is worse than it ever was,and when the C.O. talks about the problem it's falling on death ears. It used to be everyone would at least show up for his visit,but it's becoming a regular meeting anymore.
Of course,there are zealots who are oblivious to any problems or changes,but they prefer their ignorant bliss.
I think one of the biggest issues,is problems among fellow Witnesses,just not getting along. And it just causes lots of divisions in the congregations.
But,it does seem like all the "cool" people leave,lol. I've noticed when a Witness marriage breaks up,sometimes they are both disfellowshipped,9 times out of ten,it's the one that no one really likes that gets reinstated.
But,I do hope you are right. It just seems like the average Witness is more focused on their own congregation,and doesn't really pay attention to what's really going on.