by designs 45 Replies latest social current
The Cardinal of Edinburgh has just resigned and entered 'retirement', Keith O'Brien, has offered this as an apology- 'my sexual conduct has fallen below the standards expected of me as a priest'.
Four priests sent formal letters to the Vatican's Ambassador to Britian against Cardinal O'Brien.
The newly emeritus Cardinal O'Brien will now enjoy the comforts afforded by the Church of Rome including full retirement money for his rank.
So by that way of rationalizing it...
Ted Bundy should have been set free if he just made the necessary steps to never murder and rape again.
Bernie Madoff should go free if he promise never to run another Ponzi scheme.
The guy that molested me as a youth and thereafter many of my cousins and his own step-children should have his name taken off the sex offender role and his record absolved.
I don't suppose you've missed the point on purose, so let me clarify what I said. You asserted that our view of the Catholic Church and the Watchtower should be the same because both organizations "aided and abetted the sexual abuse of children. I point out that the responses have been quite different from the two organizations -- much overdue in the Catholic case, but ultimately quite strong. I also pointed out that I don't know anyone who thinks the bishops who protected bad priests should get a pass.
I hope you can see now that I haven't said anything at all that justifies your characterization. What I have done is point out a significant difference between the two organizations in the way this was ultimately handled and the level of seriousness which, finally, the Catholics have addressed the question. I haven't justified the delay in these developments.
There are JW apologists who feel similarly about the reforms made by the Wt. Leaders and claim now everything is set right, relax God is in charge again. They find it difficult if not impossible to fathom that the sky-god the product of one's imagination and they were simple bowing to civic pressure to make necessary changes.
Well, designs, I don't know whether these changes have been made or not. What I can say is that the VIRTUS program seems quite robust and is commonly consulted by other organizations who also understand the risks associated with young people working closely with adults. These reforms would almost certainly not have been made absent the media coverage about the issue. That does not change the fact that changes seem to have been made that are qualitatively better than the changes the JWs have made or, for that matter, the policy changes we fail to see in the "civic" school system, which has some stories to tell of its own.
Again, as I have to point out on a board that is defined by a pride in its bad faith arguments, I don't justify or minimize the badness of what happened. But the question was asked how the Catholics differ from the JWs. This is part of the answer.
So a xJW who sees the terrible position the Wt. Leadership took in the Conti case and other such cases trying to protect the 'good name of the church' and writes and speaks out about it, if they have converted to Catholicism should they put blinders on with the criminal cases now moving to prosecution phases in the world's courts against your favored Church.
How to put this? No, they should not put blinders on. Not sure when I advocated putting blinders on, actually. Mahoney, in Los Angeles, for example, seems to have been quite the bastard -- hiding priests accused of molestation or other improper behavior in Mexico, for Christ's sake!
But if there are similarities between what the Catholic Church and the JWs did -- and again, there are -- it turns out there are also differences. At the same time, if you are searching for institutions that you can trust when it comes to this sort of thing, plan to be disappointed: is seems institutions have an ability to hide bad shit at all cost. The most naïve among us are shocked -- shocked! -- when they find the girls lacrosse coach is fucking the girls lacrosse team, or when they find Father Friendly is getting blow jobs from altar boys, or when they find out that the Ministerial Servant who takes a real interest in the kids has a computer filled with video of the kids masturbating while he watches.
Like, no shit. Doesn't everybody know that a quite small percentage of adults who work with young people take advantage of them? And doesn't everybody know that almost every single organization will find a way to protect the abusers as a way to protect itself? Haven't we learned this by now?
So what matters is creating institutional structures that prevent organizations from operating this way. The Church has implemented a set of procedures that look promising -- at least promising enough that other organizations seem interested in borrowing those procedures. Will it be enough? I don't know.
With 30,000 pages of documents against Cardinal Mahoney in the Los Angeles Archdiocese alone he is without reservation or censur from the exiting Pope allowed to vote in the next Pope, he is in Rome at this very moment. What message to the kids who had their innocence robbed from them, what message is that.
Pretty fucking bad. But Mahoney is a piece of shit and this is how you expect a piece of shit to act, isn't it? But Cardinals aren't like VPs in a multinational and the Pope can't just fire them whenever he feels like it. There is this huge process because the Popes have not always been nice guys themselves and because there is this idea that the bishops are in charge of their own cities. It's like a schoolteacher with tenure -- they have due process rights that can take a lot of time to work through. So, yeah, Mahoney outta stay the fuck out, but when he was taking victory laps for all his lefty political viewpoints, I guess it made him think he was above all that.
Well this thread is really about the wall of priviledge that exists around the top Leaders of the Catholic Church, from Popes to Cardinals to Bishops to Priests. Few are serving prison time, and they get protections and retirement money, which is a step beyond your comment of them not getting 'a pass' for their sexual abuse sins against so many.
Wt. Leaders may get similar teatment under different countries Laws. Most likely punishment will be by fines, which get passed on to the rank and file JW just like Catholics will get hit with the fees for their Leaders transgressions.
Addressing these isues with new guidelines is a step in the right direction for those compelled to stay Catholic or JW. Maybe less abuse will occur or the Law Enforcement authorities will finally be brought in earlier.
The source of the sexual problems however may be endemic to the Church of Rome whose leaders adopted such councils as Elvira, warping human behaviour the way Knorr and Franz tried to do in the 70s and Evangelical groups try to do still.
So- Cry For The Beloved Church if you must, the door of escape and freedom exists on the other side.
I got your point Sulla. I just think that it's complete shit.
Another thing, the VIRTUS program was conceived by National Catholic insurance company so what I see is money and not concern for children.
Ok, sooner. So putting every single person who comes into regular contact with young peope through a pretty extensive training program and repetitive messaging to those young people to report anything that makes them uncomfortable is exactly the same as what the JWs have done.
As for the people who developed the program, I guess you don't understand the process of working with the folks who inderstand where risks come from as part of the process to eliminate those risks. My homeowner's insurance company has lots to say about keeping my home safe and I listen to them. Turns out, they undersand what factors lead to burned-down homes. You would, perhaps, be happy if the program were designed by people who didn't know anything about this sort of risk. Gotcha.
Well this thread is really about the wall of priviledge that exists around the top Leaders of the Catholic Church, from Popes to Cardinals to Bishops to Priests. Few are serving prison time, and they get protections and retirement money, which is a step beyond your comment of them not getting 'a pass' for their sexual abuse sins against so many.
The Church doesn't run quite so many prisons as you seem to think. As for "retirement money," I don't really know who gets what. I do know that everybody gets pissed when, like, a guy who kills somebody gets to keep his retirement benefits. That's just stupid, though, since we dont live in a society where being a criminal places you beyond the protection of the law.
The source of the sexual problems however may be endemic to the Church of Rome whose leaders adopted such councils as Elvira, warping human behaviour the way Knorr and Franz tried to do in the 70s and Evangelical groups try to do still.
Which explains why the rate of sexual abuse by priests has been about the same as the rate of sexual abuse by schoolteachers, scout masters, coaches, etc. Clever. In my work, I design models that attempt to use differences between people to explain diferences in behavior. You have found a way to use differences in people to explain similarities in behavior. You should publish; clearly, this is a revolution in social science.
Clearly sinking with an old leaking rotting ship is preferred by you, eh. Maybe JWs should reason the same and stay JWs using your perspective.
What about all of the catholic charity work bla bla bla. Here in the US that is a tax payer funded marketing budget. We pay 62% of the budget for Catholic Charities of America. The church itself pays for only 3%....so the catholics dont really do much of anything.
There still seems to be a lack of two things fromthe Catholic Church and the JW/WT Org.
In both cases there is little real feeling for the victims, and in both cases, because the perpetrator has been shuffled off somehow, by taking retirement in the case of the RC Church, or by being declared "no longer a JW" in the WT cases it is presented as though the churches in both instances have no further responsibility.
In both churches a lack of proper protection for the vulnerable was a disgrace. The R.C church has taken measuresd to rectify this, the WT still drags its feet.
What is shocking is the level of hypocrisy, these people claim to represent God and His high moral standards, the individuals stood up and preached about those standards whilst holding office, whilst in the darkness they showed no regard for those standards.
When those standards are shown to be lacking in some of the Church members, the Church simply goes for a cover-up, rather than rooting out the problem.
And in all this, the poor victims get forgotten, they need help and love, and some proper Justice for what was done to them.
The church itself pays for only 3%....so the catholics dont really do much of anything.
In addition to 3% Diocesan support (and do you really think Catholic Charities is the only charity dioceses support--there are many others, including strictly local ones), there is also direct giving as your chart illustrates, but really? Catholics really don't do much of anything? Are you quite serious? And do you really think Catholic Charities is the only Catholic charitable organization in the country?
What about Food for the Poor, Caritas International, Sisters of Charity, Catholic Medical Mission Board, Catholic Relief Services and Society of St. Vincent de Paul, and St. Mary's Food Bank (the first ever food bank) to name a few?
And do you take into account volunteer or in kind charity?
Do you realize how ridiculous your bigotry makes you sound? It makes you sound like you have a degree in Awake! studies.
Americans account for a significant portion of the global Catholic philanthropic giving. The 19,000 individual Catholic parishes in the U.S. contribute $6 billion annually in local church support and international Catholic humanitarian aid. When secular charities are included, American Catholics contribute over $22 billion annually. Generations of Catholic philanthropic support have enabled the establishment of 556 hospitals, 236 colleges and universities, 1,350 high school, 6,500 grade schools and 3,000 social service agencies, collectively a $100 billion per year economy.
