The Euthyphro dilemma destroys belief that the Bible is inerrant

by yadda yadda 2 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Divine Command Theory allows Christians to rationalise that unconscionable actions caused or commanded by the Biblical God are morally justifiable. For example, God commands the genocidal killing of whole national groups such as the Amalekites, including killing all the children (1 Samuel 15).

    But by taking the side of the Euthyphro dilemma that there is an objective, anterior morality that even God is subject to, one is forced to concede that such atrocities could not have been commanded or sanctioned by a perfectly moral God. Therefore, any passages of scripture where morally unacceptable actions are attributed to God in ancient scripture cannot be believed. Thus the entire Bible cannot be trusted in as much as it purports to be 'God's Word'.

    See these articles for brief expositions -

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/divine.html

    http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/5moral95.html

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    The responses I've heard from believers to this dilemma boil down to "God gives life, he can take it away as he suits his purpose."

    In other words, God [and the priests / leaders who claim to represent God] can say "Do as I say and not as I do" when it comes to matters of morality.

    Frustrating, right? There's always some answer that satisfies their limited curiosity when it comes to God. Don't think - just listen!

  • mP
    mP

    Gopher:

    This thougth is reinforced by the OT, Gods favourites almost never do anything noble, kind or nice. THey are vile, murdering barstards. David, Solomon, Elijah, Moses, Josiah, Abraham its always about their selfish motivations. They never and i really mean never literally help an orphan or give money to a blind man. However if you dare to question their authority god kills you instantly. The hero on the other hand is free to go on the rampage forever, until time or perhaps the arrow of apagan gets them.

  • mP
    mP

    yadda

    For example, God commands the genocidal killing of whole national groups such as the Amalekites, including killing all the children (1 Samuel 15).

    mP:

    How is this any different from other Hitler ?

  • glenster
    glenster

    The Euthyphro dilemma involves wondering if God is considered all good and
    just from the human perspective or because He declares it regardless.

    The idea of God and justice is God's prerogative. He owns it all and can do
    what he wants with it, including giving people whatever length of life, if any,
    and quality of life. People are lesser beings to God similar to animals being
    lesser beings than people but moreso. God has the prerogative to take human
    life, or have it taken, as people generally assume the prerogative to take ani-
    mal life, or use food or clothes from those who did, without judging those who
    do as immoral. A person has the choice to abide or not.

    To be unethical from human standards is to overindulge the self at another's
    unnecessary hurt or expense, unfair regard or treatment, as by lying, stealing,
    murder, bigotry, etc.

    If He were all-beneficent from the human perspective, we'd all live in heaven-
    ly circumstances forever and we don't. The choice to believe in Him or not is
    analagous to the choice to believe in life or not, grateful for the chance at
    life and what good is in it. Afterlife can be a sweetener on the deal.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

    OT examples: depends on whether a conservative or liberal interpretation is
    used. I'd recommend the liberal stances (regard of the OT, evolution, LGBT
    people, separation of church and state short of proof of a God that wants
    different, etc.) which should cover most objections.

    The Euthyphro dilemma doesn't prove God doesn't exist since the above is
    assumed for an Abrahamic God--God isn't all-beneficent from the human perspec-
    tive or restricted to interpersonal human standards of prerogative--and the
    basic God concept can adapt to new information and liberal stances when adding
    specifics beyond that.

    The Euthyphro dilemma doesn't prove God doesn't exist more basically because
    the most basic concept doesn't come with a name, interventions, or character
    determinants. It depends what specifics you add.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    The HOLOCAUST came about upon the children of the Israelites because of the time when the Israelite women were temple prostitutes and killed the children of the surrounding nations by burning them up in kilns that were located on the rooftops. Because of that, Jerusalem was called a "city of bloodshed." The Holocaust mimics what those prostituting women did. The transports into Jerusalem represented the transporting of children into Jerusalem. The crematoriums reflect how those children were soon turned into ashes and dark smoke, just as the Jews were burned up and turned into dark smoke. When smoke was seen on the rooftops in Jerusalem, they knew another child had been sacrificed. When the smoke rose from Chelmo and Trablinka, everyone knew another transport of exterminated Jews were being burned up.

    Ironically, some of the Jews themselves in response to how could God permit this to happen to anyone, but especially the Jews, admit they understand this was because of what their ancestors did.

    From a WTS point of view, this means that Hitler for a while was God's own instrument of judgment.

    FAST-FORWARD TO RIGHT NOW: Many are given a chance to worship and obey God. Many will choose death rather than choose God. That's the way it goes when you have free moral agency.

    As far as the Amalakites go, they were going to die anyway due to Adamic sin. The important thing is getting a chance of eternal life on Judgment Day.

  • bohm
    bohm

    I have actually been convinced that the euthyphro dilemma is a false dilemma, and the hellenistic patch, --the nature of god is good--, solve the main problem.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    yadda yadda

    hmm - I want to say hello to a very old friend of mine - the socratic method - so hope to be reading this thread with interest. A new way of investigating this question, whilst taking in the theme of where you seem to be heading is to suggest a left handed path and a right handed path to engaging with genocide/divinely sanctioned killing in the bible and its morality. You said

    But by taking the side of the Euthyphro dilemma that there is an objective, anterior morality that even God is subject to, one is forced to concede that such atrocities could not have been commanded or sanctioned by a perfectly moral God. Therefore, any passages of scripture where morally unacceptable actions are attributed to God in ancient scripture cannot be believed. Thus the entire Bible cannot be trusted in as much as it purports to be 'God's Word'.

    the socratic method suggests that we don't know if there is an objective, anterior morality that even God is subject to. And this view then questions Jehovahs witness like conceptions of the bible as God's word and the hubrisitc authority they derive from it. (Hmm I started of disagreeing with you and now find myself agreeing) - edit I think Socrates would have agreed with your conclusion but then he would have been disagreeing with Plato himself to an extent but one needs to remember that Plato distinguishes between the earthly and heavenly realm.

    for myself I prefer a left handed path to these sorts of questions (allowing for mythic explanations as myth tends to be more holistic) which allows reason to interrogate myth and live in a side by side relationship. conscionableness is kept in view at all times though

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    ' How is this any different from other Hitler ?'

    Hitler did it, or tried to do to jews, and in the bible, jews were the ones doing it to others they didn't like.

    S

  • bohm
    bohm

    Whats being missed is that Plato didnt propose the Euthyphro dilemma to show there was no good; simply to advance his idea that there was a platonic form of the good. Now if we include the form of the good in God, the dilemma is very hard to formulate.

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