USA Case Law & Shunning - Good and Bad

by Amazing 17 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  happy man

  Thank you Amazing.
  but i have some major points ,if you say fantasy,i dont need to put down scriptures for you I think who show this OR?
  If we read the bibel we can sure find a lot of diffrent answers,i think you must look for a religion who have the best overlokk,on it all.
  when i read the bibel it fits very good widh a hevanly govermeant over the earth,i dont belevi in this new born christians talk ,we will walk on streets of gould,when the rest are burning inn hell.
  I think you forget that JW have one of the most resonebel teching when it comes to what will happend in harmageddon,we can not be blind for what happend to the mankind in Noas time ,or in jerusalem year 70.
  and that as we understan it all people even the bad one is coming back inn the 1000 years kingdom,much more loving than what the curch tell, I never see anyone tell this, even a lot of former JW are now belive in this terribel burning hell teori.I have discuss this to some on unother bord, and suddenly they think it is okey that the Lord are burning man and woman and children for ever, unbelevebal, and very hypocrytikal when they say we have a cruel point on this.
  Who nows Amaizing perhaps we have new light on this,i also have difficult to understan what the bibel say on this, but i am confident that Jehva taking care on this things in a good way.
  As we all now,hmmmm ...gov body sometimes dont have the whole picture,
  as when it come to this generation thing.
  As i say before the most important thing is to bee outside nationalism poison,dont take part in political things,Dan 2:44 and rev who say the Lord must akt and take away this wordley kings who destroy the earth.
  I dont think I need to tell you US history,hiroshima, Atomic bombs who they use even in peace time and hurt a lot of peopel, even if it was testing.
  nixon history,Vietnam ,supporting polpot the worst murder ever, eeven support bin laden few years ago,ofcourse this is politics, trying to protect ther one intrests,and this dubbel standard, one face inn the free word and one face inn the third word,and now i think Bush is playing a very dangerus game who can putt the word inn a dissaster.
  I have always belive that we are all brothers and sisters, we are not better because we are fron any special place inn the word, or mor evel.
  greatings from your friend in sweden,and good luck.
• 

  voltaire

  Amazing,

  I see your angle. It's true that the society is able to use its shunning in an arbitrary way, if it so chooses. That could be used to our advantage. It would be nice to bring some pressure to bear on the society, and enjoy the light this would shine on the society's unscrupulous practices.

  What I wrote was largely in response to what seems to be a recurrent theme on this board, "if we can sue them, they'll fall apart." That's not likely. But, a more modest goal, such as you propose, seems far more likely. I'm all for it!
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Happyman:

  You said,

  "Thank you Amazing. but i have some major points, if you say fantasy, i dont need to put down scriptures for you I think who show this OR? If we read the bibel we can sure find a lot of diffrent answers, i think you must look for a religion who have the best overlokk, on it all."

  I agree that one can find different answers in the Bible, as well as make many different interpretations. However, the concept of finding a religion that has the 'best' overall look is not something I feel necessary. None are inspired, and so my individual interpretation is likely as good and any person who starts a religion.

  "when i read the bibel it fits very good widh a hevanly govermeant over the earth, i dont belevi in this new born christians talk, we will walk on streets of gould, when the rest are burning inn hell."

  I don't believe in hell or in literal streets of gold. Nor do I believe in any literal heavenly government. At best, God has a family, not a government. Jehovah was insulted, hurt, offended when Israel wanted a literal government, and took their desire to be a rejection of his direct dealing with them ... though he used Judges on some ocassions. The concept of organizing humans began with Nimrod under Satan's direction ... whereas God never directed any government. The Kingdom is not properly understood by the Watchtower ... for it is 'within you' not not about you.

  "I think you forget that JW have one of the most resonebel teching when it comes to what will happend in harmageddon, we can not be blind for what happend to the mankind in Noas time, or in jerusalem year 70."

  I have not forgotten these Watchtower teachings. I now consider them not reasonable and to be false.

  "and that as we understan it all people even the bad one is coming back inn the 1000 years kingdom, much more loving than what the curch tell, I never see anyone tell this, even a lot of former JW are now belive in this terribel burning hell teori. I have discuss this to some on unother bord, and suddenly they think it is okey that the Lord are burning man and woman and children for ever, unbelevebal, and very hypocrytikal when they say we have a cruel point on this."

  I agree with you that to stop believing in Armageddon and then turning to a literal hellfire is wrong and hypocritical. As I noted above, however, I am not a believer in hellfire. Any doctrine of salvation I believe in is universal.

  The problem with the JW Armageddon theory is that the vast majority of humans, billions, including women, children and babies will be murdered by God's avenging angels ... and those resurrected will not be among those who died at armageddon, but those who mpreviously died.

  The logic fails me that because someone was lucky enough to live and die before Armageddon would receive more grace from God than someone in the same situation in life who happen to be unlucky enough to be alive at Armageddon. I do not see the JW dcotrine as loving or reasonable. I tend to believe in universal salvation, perhaps with the exception of some like Adloph Hitler and his type of murderous people.

  "Who nows Amaizing perhaps we have new light on this, i also have difficult to understan what the bibel say on this, but i am confident that Jehva taking care on this things in a good way."

  I have no new, progressive, growing light to give as does that claimed by the Watchtower. I have my own views, and am content with my own growth as it happens. I learn from others, and some might learn from me. But, the person most responsible to clear up the muddy mess is God himself ... and he seems content to have us all live with different views.

  "As we all now, hmmmm ... gov body sometimes dont have the whole picture, as when it come to this generation thing. As i say before the most important thing is to bee outside nationalism poison, dont take part in political things, Dan 2:44 and rev who say the Lord must akt and take away this wordley kings who destroy the earth."

  Daniel himself was a government official, even in the same nation that once persecuted him. I do not believe that government, as appointed by God (See Paul's letter to the Romans) is in and of itself bad. I believe that individual people, as in any endeavor, are responsible for their own actions ... so some government is good, and when some in it try to do bad, then the good ones need to stand up and refuse to go along with them. The same is true in religions like the JWs, Mormons, Catholics, etc.

  "I dont think I need to tell you US history, hiroshima, Atomic bombs who they use even in peace time and hurt a lot of peopel, even if it was testing. nixon history, Vietnam, supporting polpot the worst murder ever, eeven support bin laden few years ago,ofcourse this is politics, trying to protect ther one intrests, and this dubbel standard, one face inn the free word and one face inn the third word, and now i think Bush is playing a very dangerus game who can putt the word inn a dissaster."

  This is why I was a conscientious objector during Viet Nam. And while the USA did use the Atomic bomb to end WWII with Japan, it has since refrained from using it, except for tests. And now even the testing has ceased. Nixon, Clinton, and other US Presidents have done crooked things, but that does not make the nation evil ... no there are over 280,000,000 million Americans from all cultures who are good people.

  As for George Bush ... he enjoys my support because we have two choices: 1. Let the terrorists kills us, and do nothing, or 2. Stand up and fight. I support the latter.

  Finally, as I noted earlier, if a conflict is wrong, then I won't support the cause. That is what freedom is about. Whereas as a JW, if you do not support the Gb in certain matters, they will DF you. No freedom as a JW, freedom as not a JW ... I choose freedom.

  "I have always belive that we are all brothers and sisters, we are not better because we are fron any special place inn the word, or mor evel."

  I agree. We are all humans on the planet earth ... and we each individually and collectively have a common interest in and responsibility to treat one another equally, to exercise kindness, and walk modestly. Unfortunately religious, political, military, business, and social leaders do not always like that idea, and eventually it leads to war. The Watchtower is no different.

  Thanks.
• 

  MadApostate

  First, it wouldn't matter whether the DF'ed person was guilty or innocent of "theft", since a U.S. religion has the Constitutional right to DF a member for ANY reason.

  Second, there would be no slander on the part of the Cong or WTS, since no reason is announced.

  Third, shunning is performed by "individual" JWs, and shunning is "voluntary".
• 

  ros

  Hi, Amazing:

  2. The Governing Body, having defended itself in this case, is inextricably the major component to and directs the practice of all Disfellowshipping and Shunning. The Watchtower organization and its Governing Body can never claim that this is the sole responsibly of the local JW Elders.

  Hmmmmmm ... Very interesting point. Thanks.

  Ros
  "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
• 

  Francois

  I think the only way God will intervene in human affairs is through His spirit that indwells each human. In this sense, He's doing it NOW. It just seems that humans are soooooo willfully unwilling to shut down the gabble of the left brain long enough to hear this small, still voice. That being the case, it seems like it's taking forever for "civilization" on this planet to advance.

  $0.02

  Francois
• 

  bluesapphire

  Amazing, what is a "Chirstian - Diest"? Just curious. I've heard the term elsewhere and wondered about it.
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Bluesaphire:

  "Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

  This common sense approach to God and a spiritual philosophy can not only bring a lasting profound sense of peace and happiness to the individual, but it also has the potential to go light years in eradicating religious fear, superstition and violence."

  The website with additional discussion in the FAQ is good:

  Definition and FAQ: http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm
  Home page: http://www.deism.com/
  Theism is different: http://www.opentheism.org/

  I am not atheist nor really agnostic. But I find that Deism position to closely match my own current views. I call myself a Christian Deist because I believe that of anyone who walked this earth, Jesus Christ gives us the best image of who God is and what he must be like. I fund the teachings and life of Christ at the root of who I am.

  That said, organized religion - beyond meeting, singing, praying, and sharing, and some coordinated charitable work - is otherwise abhorant to me. It is the height of presumption to stand so solidly on what many religions do, and impute things to God that cannot truly be established. This must be offensive to God. I cannot fathom how humans can create so much interpretation and doctrine, convolute Biblical interpretations, and complicate the otherwise simplicity of Christ.