JW Apologists on YouTube and the Net becoming bolder

by RayPublisher 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  RayPublisher

  Is it just me or are we seeing more and more of these guys?

  I have been having some extraordinary conversations with these folks lately and they are actually holding lengthy dialogues with me, one who has become "dangerous", is "poisonous", a "slanderer", etc. according to WT.

  Here is one exchange from yesterday and today with a JW Apologist who calls himself "warriorprince101010" who decided to call me the dreaded "A" word on one of my videos, stating that I was a "bitter apostate":

  --------------------

  I sent him this message:

  Subject: Your comments on my YT videos

  Hello Little "Warrior"
  
  My name is Eric my YouTube channel is JWStruggle as you know. I wanted to tell you that I am glad you are watching my videos for and about Jehovah's Witnesses. I was an elder for many years and served at Brooklyn Bethel, knew many Governing Body members, gave parts on conventions, etc.
  
  Brother, you are violating the rules of your own Most Holy Governing Body by watching my videos and adding comments. Ask your local elders- they will most certainly give you "loving counsel" and order you to stop commenting and watching them. If you don't do this and continue watching and commenting, then it would show a rebellious spirit by your own standards as stated in the WT magazine. Calling me names only makes you more of a hypocrite...Jesus did not do this.
  
  Like you, I used to also defend the WT and the governing body when people said things that I thought were slanderous or fabricated. Then a few years ago I stumbled upon scanned documents proving that the Watchtower joined the United Nations as a Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) for a period from 1991 to 2001. It shocked me, since the Revelation book says that the UN is the scarlet colored wild beast. I also read many Watchtower magazines that Brother Russell wrote back in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
  
  I came to realize something was very wrong but couldn't figure out just what it was. If Russell was alive today he would be DFed for apostasy as the doctrines have changed so much. I found out that there are thousands of brothers that go home after memorial and partake of the emblems in private so as not to go through the embarrassment some would put them through if they followed their Christian conscience and nibbled and sipped the bread and wine.
  
  It was agonizing...and I prayerfully waited on Jehovah for answers and did more long, careful research for about two years. The conclusions I reached were not hasty or emotional. It's not about finding fault at all. The friends at the Kingdom Hall are good people, of this I had no doubt. It wasn't about finding flaws in people. But I found out I had been lied to about many things...I was told all my life that I would never grow old in this system, that I would never even get out of High School before the New World came... and that was almost 30 years ago!
  
  So when I finally looked behind the curtain and saw that the "Great and Powerful Oz" was just a little old man making it up as he went along, I began to learn The Truth About The Truth (TTATT) and that was hard. But I am so glad that I did, and have a lot of hope and peace of mind today.
  
  By all means, please contact me anytime if I can help you or answer any questions you may have. Many of the friends contact me regularly because they have no else they can talk to about these matters, including active elders and ministerial servants.
  
  Agape,
  Eric
  [email protected]

  --------------------

  He wrote back:

  The UN membership does not condone the UN or claim it can bring world peace, also it is old news.
  
  I have pointed out you are an apostate, Jesus also did this.
  
  In your videos you set up and mock innocent JW who are not in the governing body, this is cowardly and shows you simply cannot be trusted as a person.
  
  I however wish you and your family the best.
  
  One day maybe you will understand our relationship should be with Jehovah, not people in the kingdom hall, but one to one with Jehovah through his son Jesus.
  
  Bye and I wish your family all the very best.

  --------------------

  I responded:

  Your comments regarding me and my family are appreciated. also I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging that the WT was a member of the scarlet-colored wild beast for 10 years. How could that be old news?
  
  They are the ones that have aposticized though brother...the GB are the actual apostates! They lord it over their fellow slaves and crush anyone that dares to try and speak out for truth, using the elders as blunt tools and brass knuckles to carry out their bidding. In my own home I tried to read a book...in America...and my wife cried out- "Get THAT BOOK out of my home!" So as JWs we have banned books, banned websites...hmmm something's not right with this picture.
  
  It is also notable that you continue to talk with me, a supposedly evil, slanderous, ensnarer of men's hearts. Yet I have literally hundreds that message me every month thanking me for helping them. I pray with them, encourage them to fololow their Christian conscience, and to serve Jehovah the father as well as Jesus his son.
  
  And her you likely plan to continue watching so-called apostate videos and frequenting apostate sites in direct violation of your GB popes, as a "warrior" for T R U T H.
  
  Why not answer me on this point and we can call it even: If what I preach is supposedly so "gangrenous", "death-dealing" and "poisonous" (according to the Watchtower) why have you escaped unscathed and unaffected?
  
  Are you different from the rest of the friends? Built of stronger stuff than the rest?
  
  OR
  .
  .
  .
  Could it be that you have been lied to about the so-called dangers of "apostate thinking"? Perhaps the rhetoric of the GB is not in line with fact and is overblown.
  
  Which is it? Obey the GB, or think for yourself? They are your SLAVE (which is a contradiction itself since they are also simultaneously your masters)
  
  Did you speak to your elders yet about your association with me and others online? Have they given you counsel you agree with or disagree with?
  
  I await an answer on this and yes I wish you well also. There are MANY brothers and sisters in the KH that call me and email me still because we are friends, and you are welcome to do the same anytime.
  
  Eric
  
  BTW what is your name?

  ---------------------

  We will see what his next response is (if any)
• 

  Brother of the Hawk

  Thanks Eric! It does seem they are getting bolder and more obnoxious. Snarky has been getting some strange ones also.
• 

  Splash

  Hi Eric.

  Your JC was very powerful for me, thank you for posting it.

  I am still in and can reconcile my awareness with what I hear on the platform. I mentally filter what I'm offered as food.

  I respect the path you chose but it's not for me, at least not at the moment, and other visitors to here, your website and the other exJW sites are all at different stages in their journeys.

  We all travel at our own speed but the WT has built itself on foundations of shifting sands so there is only one possible outcome. Will it be lots of tremors or a single great quake that undermines it altogether? Only time will tell.

  Agape bro.

  Splash.
• 

  sd-7

  The UN membership does not condone the UN or claim it can bring world peace, also it is old news.

  The UN association, not membership, as an NGO with DPI, does require informing the public about UN activities and accomplishments. This would probably, to say the least, be seen as a disassociating offense for any JW engaging in such activity on their own. The Society not only agreed to do this by their actions, they used ordinary JWs to disseminate information about UN activities, thus involving them directly in what should logically have been considered a serious sin. 1925 is old news, too, but that doesn't mean it has no relevance or bearing on whether JWs are teaching the truth. It's part of their history, "the history of God's organization", which JWs are even now being encouraged to study even as part of Family Worship.
  
  

  I have pointed out you are an apostate, Jesus also did this.

  Name a scripture where Jesus uses the word "apostate". Is there one? Jesus spoke out against those who were hypocrites, who burdened the people with excessive rules but did not obey the rules themselves, people who thought they were better than everyone else and more righteous than everyone else. So you would have to be more specific in defining this label.
  
  
  One day maybe you will understand our relationship should be with Jehovah, not people in the kingdom hall, but one to one with Jehovah through his son Jesus.

  Hmm. You keep saying this sentence. I do not think it means what you think it means...

  --sd-7
• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  Hello Ray

  First off, thank you so much for your courage. I appreciate what you've done to promote truth.

  If only Jehovah's Witnesses cut as much slack for other religions as they do for themselves!

  Apologist: "The UN membership does not condone the UN or claim it can bring world peace, also it is old news."

  Your JW apologist needs to spend more time reading his own WT literature and less time debating people who actually know what they are talking about!

  The Watchtower has made it clear that ANY association with the U.N. is wrong, labelled as 'guilt by association'. The "it is old news" excuse also falls short ! The WT is currently a member of the OSCE, a close associate of the U.N. with virtually identical goals. Note what WT has said about the YMCA, the U.N. and similar organizations:

  • "In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25). Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theatre ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy." - w79 1/1 p. 31 - [Emphasis added]

  *** w81 9/15 p. 23 par. 15 Disfellowshiping—How to View It ***

  Or, a person might renounce his place in the Christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of an organizationwhose objective is contrary to the Bible, and, hence, is under judgment by Jehovah God. (Compare Revelation 19:17-21; Isaiah 2:4.) So if one who was a Christian chose to join those who are disapproved of God, it would be fitting for the congregation to acknowledge by a brief announcement that he had disassociated himself and is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  Watchtower 15 Sep 1984 p.15

  "No, the UN is not a blessing, even though the religious clergy of Christendom and the rabbis of Jewry pray heaven’s blessing upon that organization. It is really "the image of the wild beast," the visible political, commercial organization of "the god of this system of things," Satan the Devil. So the UN will soon be destroyed along with that beastly organization."

  *** lv chap. 7 pp. 82-83 Do You Value Life as God Does? ***
  
  STAY CLEAR OF BLOODGUILTY ORGANIZATIONS

  20 In God's eyes, Satan's entire world is bloodguilty. Its political systems, portrayed in the Scriptures as vicious beasts, have slaughtered countless millions, including many of Jehovah's servants. (Daniel 8:3, 4, 20-22; Revelation 13:1, 2, 7, 8) Hand in hand with these beastlike powers, business and science have worked to create some of the most heinous weapons imaginable, making huge profits in the process. How true that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one"!-1 John 5:19.

  21 Because Jesus' followers are "no part of the world" but remain strictly neutral toward its politics and wars, they avoid personal and community bloodguilt. (John 15:19; 17:16)

  ---

  OSCE

  "With 56 States from Europe, Central Asia and North America, the OSCE is the world's largest regional security organization. It offers a forum for political negotiations and decision-making in the fields of early warning, conflict prevention, crisis management and post-conflict rehabilitation, and puts the political will of its participating States into practice through its unique network of field missions. "The OSCE has a comprehensive approach to security that encompasses politico-military, economic and environmental, and human aspects." (osce.org/who 6th Oct 2012)

  The OSCE is closely aligned with the United Nations.The OSCE recognizes that the United Nations Security Council bears primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security. Thus, the United Nations is the OSCE's primary partner organization. (osce.org/ec/43240)

  The 2006 participants yet again include Mr. Marcel Gilletrepresenting the European Association of Jehovah's Christian Witnesses .

  ----

  Now, if the Watchtower will disfellowship a JW for using the swimming pool at the YMCA because "Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization", how can the WT, or any Jehovah's Witness, claim the WT can join the U.N. and remain innocent?

  It is absurd and the height of hypocrisy !
• 

  *lost*

  OSCE ..... ooooooooooooooooooooh. Just at a quick look on wiki.

  Political commitment. Naughty, naughty...... Satan's llittle helpers ..... them jw boys. For crying out load, it's getting like a freaky,nutty ,movie. The crap that is going on.

  It's better than any tv drama.

  OH!! ''weeping and gnashing of teeth '' ............. uh-oh. Theres's one of the prophecies being foretold outta revelation. Funny thing is it is talking about the jw's now.

  They are panicking, freaking out ... things are beginning to fall apart now and they are getting totally freaked about it.

  weeping and gnashing.
• 

  Brother of the Hawk

  To add my 2 cents worth. You have to be an OSCE member to attend these meetings and to file a protest. You can see the entire meeting & documents at: http://www.osce.org/search/apachesolr_search/Jehovah%27s%20witnesses?solrsort=ds_date%20desc

  more information contact the Office of General Counsel of Jehovah’s Witnesses at [email protected]

  RELIGIOUS FREEDOM CONCERNS IN SOUTH KOREA STATEMENT BY THE EUROPEAN ASSOCIATION OF JEHOVAH’S CHRISTIAN WITNESSES For the OSCE Human Dimension Implementation Meeting, Warsaw, 24 September to 5 October 2012 Criminalization of conscientiously held beliefs Jehovah’s Witnesses have been present in Korea since 1912, and in 1952 they were registered as a legally recognized religion. The approximately 100,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses in South Korea generally enjoy freedom of worship, yet are oppressed by the unresolved issue of conscientious objection. The government of South Korea has no legislative provision for alternative civilian service. Young men who identify themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses have no option to decline military training or choose alternative civilian service. As a consequence, they suffer imprisonment rather than violate their Bible-trained consciences and personally held religious convictions. They continue to suffer after their release due to the criminalization of their conscientious position. At present, more than 650 young male Jehovah’s Witnesses have been convicted as criminals and are imprisoned as conscientious objectors in South Korea. Most OSCE member countries have introduced an alternative civilian service option, where applicable. The OSCE 1990 Copenhagen Document states in its article 18.4 that the participating States "agree to consider introducing, (…), various forms of alternative service, which are compatible with the reasons for conscientious objection, (…) and of (…) civilian nature, (…) and of a non-punitive nature." Striving to meet this OSCE standard is expected of all states in Partners for Co-operation. Therefore, we are compelled to decry the detention of more than 650 Jehovah's Witnesses currently in prison in South Korea because they are conscientious objectors. Since 1950, 16,955 Jehovah’s Witnesses in South Korea have been sentenced to a combined total of 32,185 years for refusing to perform military service. Recent statistics are presented below. JANFEBMARAPRMAYJUNJULAUGSEPOCTNOVDECJANFEBMARAPRMAYJUNJUL Republic of Korea finds no legal remedy The UN Human Rights Committee (Committee) has declared that the Republic of Korea has violated Article 18, paragraph 1, of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Its 1 December 2006 decision found an infringement of freedom of conscience in the case of two Jehovah’s Witnesses who were imprisoned for refusing military service. On 24 March 2011, the Committee decided the same in the case of 100 Jehovah’s Witnesses; 438 further individual complaints are still pending before this Committee. In its decisions, the Committee reminded South Korea that it was under obligation to put an end to the violation. Yet the government of South Korea is on record as saying it does not intend to implement the Committee’s views. In its decision of 30 August 2011, the Constitutional Court refused to apply the Committee’s decisions and found no basis to declare unconstitutional the laws that penalize conscientious objectors refusing military service. There are 15 cases still pending before the Constitutional Court for examination of the constitutionality of relevant laws. The Supreme Court has consistently rejected appeals from sentenced conscientious objectors, some 200 filed so far. From the Korean War period to the present, the government has relentlessly prosecuted conscientious objectors. Not a single alternative has been provided by the government to resolve the issue of conscientious objection. Escalation of discrimination against conscientious objectors Conscientious objectors to reservist training face repeated trials, fines, and even prison terms. They undergo 8-year-long cycles of call ups, 2 or 3 times a year, and repeated prosecutions. One of these conscientious objectors to reservist training (whose case was rejected by the Constitutional Court’s 30 August 2011 decision) has been prosecuted 37 times and expects to face call ups and trials for two more years. A respectful request Jehovah’s Witnesses respectfully request the government of South Korea to recognize their conscientious objection to military service, pardon the conscientious objectors presently in jail, and institute a genuine civilian service that is not under military supervision. A delegation of Jehovah’s Witnesses is ready to meet with representatives of South Korea attending the present conference in order to clarify any misunderstanding and to promote a constructive dialogue. Imprisoned847836821846807753736743777804802762730764779731748675665 Imprisoned this month34694068402335336696835449786340421220Sentenced prisoners844830815838805752736743776800795754720752772720733660656 Sentenced this month39664066462436336593805347776836371126Trial with detention366821001578111271115159 Trial Court1335100000000101110 Appeallate Court1222000013543244331 Supreme Court111111000224893611118Trial without detention1099210189837687112110867576101919684566583 Trial Court83657563575162878157525176616256273355 Appeallate Court18191818171616161923222019242919141410 Supreme Court88889999106156659151818Investigated66574530253745443627342822203125345466Appeal to Supreme Court200020001036631111149 accumulative total143143143143145145145145146146149155161164165176187191200 20112012
• 

  daringhart13

  I admire your tenacity....your will to even attempt communicating with them.

  I just can't get the emotions to speak to people who choose to be ignorant, have never read their own Bible or studied their own literature.
• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  Good point, Brother OTH. Thanks for posting a scan ofthat OSCE document. Since the OSCE pursues issues only for its members, The Watchtower's affiliation with them as an active member is quite beyond dispute.

  And, unlike OSCE, the WT did not have to apply for NGO status with the U.N. in order to obtain a "library card" as they claim. Prior to 9-11-2001 anyone could access the UN library physically with no special status (NGO) and all of the library's contents were available online. Post- 9/11 a little more security was added to gain access to the library physically, but being an NGO was not one of those requirements. And, most of the online information and access to it was still available without being an NGO.

  Regardless, even if the U.N. had the greatest library in the world and WT could use that as a resource for some informative articles, the fact is the WT condemned all association with the UN in any status. It has targeted specifically religions that have NGO status, most notably the Catholic Church, calling them spiritual "drunkards" for currying favor from this world's political elements, the "wild beast" controlled by Satan.

  The following letter makes their true status quite clear, and for WT to claim ignorance of what they were doing is disingenuous at best:

  This is excerpted from a letter dated March 4, 2004 from Paul Hoeffel, the then Chief of the Non-Governmental Organizations (NGO) Section of the U.N. Department of Public Information. It was written in response to "numerous inquiries regarding the association of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York with the Department of Public Information (DPI)."

  The letter states:

  "This organization [the WTBTS] applied for association with DPI in 1991 and was granted association in 1992. By accepting association with DPI, the organization agreed to meet criteria for association, including support and respect of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations and commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes with its constituents and to a broader audience about UN activities."

  The letter also makes clear that requirements now are the same as they were when the Watchtower submitted their application. It says:

  "The criteria for association for NGOs has not been changed since 1991"

  The WT disassociated themselves in 2002 after getting busted. They have yet to admit their hypocrisy to Jehovah's Witnesses in any official manner.
• 

  RayPublisher

  @ Splash - I respect your position and your conscience on this bro. We ARE ALL at different stages and have no room to judge what another does on this WT stuff.

  They are on shifting sand that is for sure.

  @ SD-7 - Good responses bro you can out-debate this fellow with one arm tied behind your back...

  @ AndDontCallMeShirley - First off this: I love that screen name and I love Leslie Nielson he is hillarious.

  Thanks for these great quotes I am going to send them to the JW guy and see how he reacts to them!