Evidence against JWs' view of disfellowshipping

Ephanyminitas

My father, an elder, is willing to speak with me about the Society's view of disfellowshipping. I actually think that today I put a chink in his armor about the whole thing. (I'm very shocked, and just a bit hopeful.) So what I'm looking for is succinct, clear evidence that the JWs' view of disfellowshipping is not biblical -- that it's not scriptural. I'm hoping that all of you can help me! What can convince an elder?

Gopher

This has been commented on several times in the forum. I used the "search" function to come up with an interesting thread.

Please view that thread, listed below. Particularly helpful arguments are found in the entries from OZZIEPOST and AMAZING.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22678&site=3#284286

Hope this may be helpful.

-J.R., member, UADNA-MN
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Minnesota division)

This post was not evaluated by any mental health professionals.
Any opinions expressed are those of a fuzzy, cuddly rodent.

Ephanyminitas

Thanks, Goph! You're the best rodent I know.

I looked at this Web page and, to my embarrassment, ended up quite confused. One place where I became so is with Matthew 18:15-17. When it says "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone," this sounds like more of a personal slight to me.

Also:

But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.--1.Cor. 5:11 (NWT)

Englishman said, "This plainly applies to sinners who insist on remaining in the congregation." However, I don't see the connection here. Where does it mention -- or rather, imply -- that this one insists on remaining in the congregation?

Also, what about 1 Corinthians 5:13? What's meant by "remove"?

I'm so confused! Help!

Fire Dragon

I don't know if this will help you or not, but I thought I'd give you my personal experience.
I was recently DFd and my father, who is also an elder, is totally taking it to the extreme with the shunning thing. I was mostly raised by this guy but you wouldn't know it by the way he's acting. I'm not welcome in his home. I can't go visit my dying uncle in the hospital. He said that if he ever sees me that he wouldn't even hug me - because that's a greeting! Whatever! I asked him to tell me where in the Bible it says that he can't hug his own daughter. His response? 'I can't talk to you about the Bible because you're DFd.' My father said that I'll be allowed to call once a month just to make sure no one died. That strengthened my resolve to never go back to the 'borganization'. Any doctrine that makes their members disown their own children is not from God. Love is supposed to be unconditional.

"...if there is a hell, I'll see you there." (NIN - Downward Spiral)
I'll be the one providing the fire.

dungbeetle

Ephay...

When it comes to debating the issue, you must separate, before you even begin the two issues of disfellowshipping and shunning.

The Watchtower has said that expuslion is a death sentence, the limit that a religious body can do because of the laws of the land. Watchtower says that expulsion is analagous to a country's powers of capital punishment. Don't you just FEEEL the LOOOVE...

One cannot go sign up for the Indianpolis 500 on horseback. You cannot debate or reason or argue the expulsion/shunning issue unless you deal with them separately.

In the US, religions have the legal right to expel a member of their church, and that is that. I think that the disfellowshipping issue is like a dead horse---there are weaker links in the chain to more effectively attack. The shunning issue has no Scriptural backing, that is the weak link. The shunning breaks up families and contributes to the high dropout rate of minor JW's from the faith. It also contributes to sucide and murder. This is not even debateable

The key to debating with JW is not to TELL them things...but to ASK them things.

Ask them where, in the bible, rape and molestation and battering survivors are to be shunned, after Jesus' death? Even if it were Scriptural to expel such ones---<gag> <choke> where is it scriptural to SHUN them? Name one Scriptural example. And that leave them with this thought...

ros

You might find this artical on xjw.com of interest:

http://www.xjw.com/shunning.html

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

Tinkerbell4125

I help care for a uncle with my 2 j.w. sisters. We love each other, but I realize that the only thing that keeps us associating with me is the fact, it's a family matter. My sisters and I send each other emails pretty regularly. I wonder if it will change after my uncles passes away. Is anyone in this kind of situation??? My mother didn't speak to me for 13 years. She's dead now and nothing can bring those years back. The borg. should pay for what they do to peoples lives.

Tink =:o)

Xena

Ephanyminitas I didn't read the links but I have my own view on that scripture that might help...

quote]But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.--1.Cor. 5:11 (NWT)[/quote]

For me the key thing is that it speaks of anyone called a BROTHER...meaning this one is still considered a part of the congergaton. To keep the congergation clean they need to expel this one and not associate with them. BUT what if you are no longer a part of the congergation..if you don't call yourself a brother?? Then what need would there be to expel you?

Hope that helps some.

Hey Fire I told my sister that she is the reason I will never go back to the JW's...any religion that teaches you to treat your family like that is just WRONG! Gee...I hope that doesn't make her feel like my blood is on her head now

VeniceIT

dont' ask ahhahah just look below

Vennie

VeniceIT

Here's something I typed up a while back, just my thoughts.
_____________________
Question on Shunning

We were discussing different Scriptures one I would like to stay with is in Matt 18:15-17 (taken from the NASB)

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private, if he listens to you, you have won your brother"
"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed."
"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector'.

Matt 18:15-17a is what the JW's use to handle a df'ing, (In theory although the publishers really don't have a say in it as this scripture would suggest, but that's another post entirely) back to the point!!!! Does Jesus say to disfellowship them?? remember we're talking about his one passage!!! HOW DID HE SAY TO TREAT SUCH ONES?

'let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector'.

OK so HERE is the Question what did Jesus mean by the above vs. How he treated them??? or how the Pharisees treated them??

(them being Gentiles and tax collectors)

Jesus ate with Gentiles, and Matthew was a tax collector!

The Pharisees where the ones that shunned the Gentiles and Tax collectors!

WHO'S EXAMPLE should we follow JESUS or the Pharisees?

http://www.geocities.com/veniceexjw/shunning.html
_____________________
Thanks Mulan for that thought it's really come in handy.

Vennie

"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like no one is watching!!!"

Evidence against JWs' view of disfellowshipping

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