Jehovah's Witnesses and informed consent

by JeffT 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    “Informed consent” is a common phrase in medicine and related law. The term means a patient knows all relevant facts and is mentally capable of making decisions about his or her care. (see Wikipedia.com “Informed Consent”)

    This article examines informed consent in a religious context. When Jehovah’s Witnesses, decide matters of finances, education, medical treatment, or even whether to join the religion; do they have all the information they need to make that decision? Do they have the clear mental facilities needed to decide?

    I will submit that they do not.

    The rest of the article is up on my blog.  http://pathologicallyintellectual.blogspot.com/

  • whathappened
    whathappened

    I could not open the link for some reason but wanted to add my two cents.

    I was raised in this religion and am 59 years old right now. I never knew any of the true history of the Watchtower Society. I have been baptized since 1971 and just found out the truth about the truth about two and a half years ago. I raised my kid in this fraud of a religion. I even asked right before I was baptized about the modern history of the organization and was told that some people got together to study the Bible and discovered that none of the churches were teaching what the Bible taught. They started the Society. That sounded good to me so I went ahead and got baptized. I am so mad that I didn't get taught the true story about how this religion began, even though I did ask.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    You can't teach what you don't know. Also, there is no way that informed consent can exist because the Borg is so compartmentalized. The people are basically good and you get sucked in with love, or you are born in. The only real " truth " that you believe exists, is that the WTBTS is the one and only channel that God uses. If you can swallow that one...the rest is easy.

    I don't think many even think of informed consent. They just figure, " Well, no one has all the answers. I love God, so why not get baptized?" You don't know anything else so it seems like a good idea. Even if someone did know TTATT, what could they do? As soon as you speak up you get DF'd. Then you are the crazy guy being hauled off, yelling, " IT"S PEOPLE!! YOU ARE EATING PEOPLE!!!"

    The real higher-ups know TTATT. I blame them.

    Whathappened,

    I have Kid that I am desperately trying to deprogram. I teach reasoning skills. I am not getting into specific doctrines yet.

    We just had a good discussion on why it's ok to expose wrongdoing. I explained that sometimes there are consequences for doing what is right, and used myself as an example. Since I have never lied to my child and they know that, things are looking up. Don't give up. As crazy as the org is getting, your kid may still get out.

  • whathappened
    whathappened

    Data dog: thanks, I have tried to get her out but she is married to a dub and they are happy. Meanwhile, they are raising my grandson in this cult. YUK! Thanks for your encouragement, I do hope this July 15th study edition rattles her as we have discussed this and she seemed like she didn't believe me.

    Good to hear your kid is listening.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    The lack of informed consent is one of the hallmarks of cults. They deliberately hide some of the facts until you're in the inner circle. [source]

    I know several dubs who were counseled for telling bible studies some of the weirder beliefs/practices of the dubs "too early, it will scare them away". It is not a legitimate religious practice to do this.

    WHAT ARE THE CRITERIA OF A COERCIVE PERSUASION PROGRAM?

    A). Determine if the subject individual held enough knowledge and volitional capacity to make the decision to change his or her ideas or beliefs.

    B). Determine whether that individual did, in fact, adopt, affirm, or reject those ideas or beliefs on his own.

    C). Then, if necessary, all that should be examined is the behavioral processes used, not ideological content. One needs to examine only the behavioral processes used in their "conversion." Each alleged coercive persuasion situation should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. The characteristics of coercive persuasion programs are severe, well-understood, and they are not accidental.

    COERCIVE PERSUASION IS NOT VOLUNTARY, PEACEFUL, RELIGIOUS PRACTICE OR CENTRAL TO ANY BONA FIDE RELIGION.

    Coercive persuasion is not a religious practice, it is a control technology. It is not a belief or ideology, it is a technological process.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    How many JW's if they read and understood JWfacts' and other excellent articles on the Blood Doctrine would dogmatically and happily refuse a B.T ?

    Not many I would say.

    So, they are not capable of giving or witholding consent from an informed position. A JW should be prevented for this reason from having any say in the treatment of his or her child in this matter.

    The child too can never be judged to make an informed decision for itself, it simply has not been informed of 90% of the facts.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    I am training in medicine, in the medical world we refer to it as capacity and autonomy. If they have capacity then legally they have autonomy.

    I brought up the issue with a local coroner, JW's make decisions based on misinformation and fear of the consequences. Believe it or not, a sizeable portion of JW's have treatment such as blood and rely o the confidentiality of doctors.

    That aside however, there are strict definitions for capacity and the average JW would pass no problem. To have legal capacity to make a medical decision the patient need only display 4 things:

    • Understand the information relevant to the decision.
    • Retain the information.
    • Use that information as part of the process of making the decision.
    • Communicate his/her decision either by talking, signing, or any other means.

    As you can see in legal terms, they do have capacity, though knowing the peer pressure and misinformation perpetuated amongst many JW's it does still concern me, IF they don't hear another opinion. We have all heard JW anecdotal beliefs such as 'blood is very dangerous' or that 'blood more often kills you and doesn't save you" etc. Most JW's don't even know that blood fractions and components have come from a blood donation!

    It is likely that the reason a number of JW's accept treatment under confidentiality, is that its probably the first time they have heard all the true facts and data. The best thing a doctor can do for a JW patient is give them information and evidence so they can make an informed decision.

    Take a peek at tis article...

    http://jme.bmj.com/content/26/5/375.full

    snare

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    "Understand the information relevant to the decision".

    They fail on that first one JW's, they consider the most relevant information as to the decision comes from the Bible.

    They do not understand the Bibles stance on Blood Transfusion.

    They would not believe you if you told them the Bible has nothing to say on the medical use of blood for saving lives.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    snare is right in that adult jws abdicate their option to exercise informed consent, and for that they are personally responsible.

    Of course that does not absolve any one of the dubs for purposeful deceit.

    Everyone is responsible for their own actions (capable adults, anyway).

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    I understand your concerns and I have them too. However, this is not the duty or role of a doctor. If as a doctor i say 'blood will save your life' and the patient understand that this is what medical science believes or says, however they disagree, then they still have capacity. Capacity is not about looking for people who disagree with what we believe to be true, for whatever reason. Despite being in a religious organisation or an anti science beleif system...if the person has the physical means to hear information and consider it, even to instantly dismiss it, they have capacity.

    We are not judging them on their ability to choose one piece of information or another, just that they actually have the physical capacity to hear and take in the information presented, as opposed to someone with dementia or in a coma for example or patients that are temporarily incapacitated with fever, delirium, drugs or alcohol.... Its about looking for physical constraints on capacity. (this obviously includes mental constraints too , as they are manifestations of physical pathology.)

    Basically If a JW has a non diseased brain along with normal mechanisms of communication, then they have capacity. If they decide that information given to them from a religious source outweighs the scientific data, they clearly have reasoning skills, though we may reach an alternate conclusion.

    Medicine is not the mechanism for dictating beliefs to people. People refuse life saving treatment all the time, its hard to watch but we live in a society of free choice and we have to respect autonomy.

    A US congressman mentioned Noah's flood the other day in congress as an example of non human caused climate change. To me this is ridiculous and against all modern science and evidence. I believe he thinks this due to his religious beliefs. I think he views all data and information with a bias, based on his world view. But does he have capacity to make these decisions and hold these beliefs...... Yes.

    snare x

    P.s. I understand your view 100%, its just not the role of doctors and legally thats not what we are assessing. The issue isn't even up for debate legally, these are the constraints for assessing capacity. I must admit I agree with the current legal mechanism, it allows for freedom of thought and decision. Though I still hold deep derision for any belief system that attempt to misinform and tell people how to live, though this is not an element of physical capacity.

    Edit, added....

    I just thought of Africa and the aids/HIV epidemic, made worse by the catholic stance on condoms. They are making life and death choices based on the belief thatbgodmgave authority to a man on earth, who if defied will result in eternal torment. Despite this, each (clinically well) catholic has capacity, despite condemning their very own babies to the disease in many cases. The pope declared that condoms CAUSE aids, of course defying all evidence and science, logic and reasoning. If people chose to believe this or accept it through fear,of punishment, they indeed have capacity to make decisions, good or bad.

    We would never say that those Catholics lacked capacity. Though we may have personal views on their descion making skills and abilities in critical appraisal of information and evidence.

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