Is this their arguement?

by problemaddict 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  problemaddict

  Yes thank you. They were refferenced in a Malcolm Gladwell book I was reading. Basically one person though they were doing an association game in which the second party would receive a shock if they got the answer wrong. The second person was in a closed room, and was an actor. There were ques the researcher would use to get the person to move forward when they protested.

  So the person would get something wrong and they would yell when you shocked them. The charge kept going up and up, and the screams and even punding on the door would begin.

  If the person expressed concern in various stages they would say the following.

  1) PLEASE continue

  as it escalates the next que was

  2) It is IMPORTANT TO THE EXPERIMENT that you continue

  and on it goes....

  3) It is IMPERITIVE that you continue

  and finally the last one.

  4) You MUST continue.

  .....at some point the person would remain quite as if unconscious and the tester/subject would still shock them, sometimes through tears. Just because the person running the experiment had a white labcoat and a clip board.

  Out of 100, the students said they thought only 2 or 3 would be sadistic enough to give the person the full charge. The real number? 72.

  My favorite whe you look at the footage (yes there is footage), is of the guy who hears the scream and when they get to the 4th que where he MUST continue says....."I don't have to do a God damn thing!", and nearly busts down the door.

  Thats the kind of person I want to be. BUt there is something to be said about not just JW's but human nature in general that allows themselves to be so disuaded by a percieved authority figure.
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  Dismissing servant

  "So what comes next is the debate over Gods "chosen people". The justification seems to go like this. "If you obey the GB but they are wrong, they are accountable and have a weightier judgement, if you disobey them, you have gone against the annointed of jehovah and it doesn't mattter if you are right." "

  I think this is spot-on JW rank and file psychology. They have been so manipulated not to think and question, just to obey.But beeng so outright that it's not a question of right and wrong is unique. One would expect that being right has someting to do with the "truth". :)
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  prologos

  Allied interogators found that the nazis "managed" the population with a surprising low number of enforcers.

  There was a lot of abuse of power by local authorities (equivalent to elders) under the feared preamble: "Fuehrerbefehl l!!!" (order of the Leader), even when no such order existed.

  remember even in Israel true prophets were persecuted by invoking without autorization jehovah's name. 2 Chr. 18.

  It is the ones actually the doing, the killing, the disfellowshipping, the curbing, the disparaging that have a personal choice, personal responsabilty and that put themselfs in line for the promised tit for tat judgement to come.

  That is what the "more severe judgement" to come for abusers is about. Hebr.10:29

  some Wt personell would be appalled to really know the damage that was, and is beeing, done by it's appointees. (not that the nazis cared, in the slugfest of ww2.)
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  Oubliette

  wha happened: Did u say reasoning and JW's in the same sentence?

  No. I said "reasoning" and GB in the same sentence. Notice the use of "scare quotes" around the word reasoning.
• 

  villagegirl

  Sooo -What your brother is saying is; in Jesus day, when the Sanhedrin

  and the High Priest asked Pontius Pilate to execute Jesus,

  and say, your brother was there at the time,

  and he knew Jesus was the Messiah and had seen him resurrect the

  dead and heal the blind and the lepers, he would still be in the crowd

  calling for Jesus to be crucified ? Based on his FEAR of going against the established

  and very "appointed by Jehovah" Priesthood.?? Who as it turned out were wrong

  and their temple was destroyed in AD 70. But your brother would stick to the

  established organization instead of what he knew to be the true Messiah ?

  Put it to him that way and see what he says.
• 

  problemaddict

  @ villagegirl - Well I see your point, although i am sure his point STOPS at the point in which Jesus comes to eart and is ANNOINTED with holy spirit. In the technospeak, this would make him chosen, and would supercede the Pharisees. But before that.....sure Jesus was in the temple, went to the festivals, basically observed their system. So that would be his justification.

  @ everyone else - I suppose what got me is that this thinking wasn't implied, it was spoken very directly to me. A CO made a statement to me somewhere along the lines of(while I was doing backstrokes in the Kool-aid), if the GB makes a mistake, he can forgive them for being wrong and correct their path, but you would be Korah if you go against them until Jehovah sets them straight.

  My brother reiterated this exact sentiment, and told me if they are wrong they answer for that, if you don't follow them, you answer for that. I suppose the direct statements are what have thrown me off.
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  DATA-DOG

  I think some of us afraid to take responsibility for ourselves. It can be scary. If the GB is wrong it's on them, if they are right then great?! What a great way to alleviate ourselves of taking action and risk. It works out great for the GB because they are just waiting to rule anyone who will let them.
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  prologos

  their Korah argument is fallacious is it not?, because this was rebellion. for the sake of power alone. but

  The refusal to follow wrong orders, doctrine is approved by Christ:

  consider the case of the few in the Thiatyra congregation Rev.2 that were uneffected by the jezebel influence and resisted the elder body and were singled out by Christ for approval.

  Consider Paul resisting Peter publicly. even Mary did not mind as far as we know.

  Most of the Hebr.11 cloud were dissidents.

  yes we can.
• 

  villagegirl

  Jesus did NOT supercede the Pharasees when he got baptized. This is where the WT

  manipulates the scriptures, It was not until he DIED and the Holy of Holies curtain

  was rent in two. ( read it ) It was his DEATH and resurrection, his entering into to

  heaven was symbolized by the High Priest entering the Holy of Holies. His DEATH

  ended the Priesthood !!! NOT his baptism. We can all be annointed with Holy Spirit,

  only one was chosen to be the Mediator and the Messiah.

  Many people were annointed with Holy Spirit, all who get baptized, and still today.

  The WT doctrine of the "annointed" is an attempt to create an apostolic succession

  of special annointing. Thats why they tell you, you cannot be annointed.

  They disempower Grace.

  Until you see the fundamental basis for their teaching is wrong, until you

  get this false doctrine out of your mind, its like someone is in your brain

  with an eggbeater and it scrambles up all the gospels to some Watchtower omelette.
• 

  Oubliette

  problemaddict: A CO made a statement to me somewhere along the lines of ... if the GB makes a mistake, he can forgive them for being wrong and correct their path, but you would be Korah if you go against them until Jehovah sets them straight.

  They love that Korah narrative. It is a handy way to keep dissidents in line.

  And yet, it is curiously ironic that Jesus, our role-model, was very outspoken in pointing out the hypocrisy of the legalistic religious leaders of his time.

  Of course, look what that got him!