Timeless Truths in the Bible (page 2)

patio34

There HAS been one line from the bible that i've had occasion recently to quote: "Can a leopard change it's spots?" That's Jeremiah 13:23.

JosephAlward

Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. (Ecclesiastes 3:18)

Faithful2Jah wrote,

The Ecclesiastes verses were] obviously written from the perspective of a man who lacked confidence in an afterlife. It is meant to be understood in that manner.

Much of Ecclesiastes was obviously written to illustrate the perspective of a person who had lost much of his faith. These passages of scripture allow Bible readers to see how such a spiritually lost person views the world. God inspired their writing and saw to it that they were contained in the scriptures for this reason.

There is a big problem with your interpretation, Faithful. Before I explain, please read the passage below:

God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. Solomon's wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the men of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. (1 Kings 4:29-30)

How could it be possible, Faithful, for God to have given to Solomon wisdom and understanding that was immeasurable, greater than all the wisdom in the East, a wisdom and understanding that was virtually as near-infinite as the number of grains of sand on the seashore, but yet not have given him enough understanding to comprehend that there was an “afterlife,” as you say? Does this make sense to you?

Or, is it more sensible to believe that either the Ecclesiastes author was wrong about Solomon rejecting the notion of “afterlife,” or else the 1 Kings author was wrong about God giving Solomon measureless wisdom and understanding? Or, perhaps both stories are wrong.

Which makes more sense to you, Faithful?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Unclepenn1

The point of Ecclesiastes is that life is utterly meaningless without God. Read the last few verses of the book.

Penn

JosephAlward

UnclePenn writes,

The point of Ecclesiastes is that life is utterly meaningless without God.

Perhaps, but this doesn't remove the problem at hand. Solomon appears to be totally unaware that there is the "afterlife" that Christians believe is offered by God to those who accept him. Such ignorance in one who was given by God a measureless wisdom and understanding is virtually inconceivable. Thus, either Ecclesiastes is not "God-breathed," which makes 2 Timothy 3:16 wrong, or 1 Kings is wrong about Solomon being measurelessly wise. Either way, the Bible is in error, and if the Bible is wrong in this case, it could be wrong about the creation, and the flood, and perhaps even the resurrection.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Faithful2Jah

Joseph asked >>> How could it be possible, Faithful, for God to have given to Solomon wisdom and understanding that was immeasurable, greater than all the wisdom in the East, a wisdom and understanding that was virtually as near-infinite as the number of grains of sand on the seashore, but yet not have given him enough understanding to comprehend that there was an “afterlife,” as you say?

"As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord ; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done." (1 Kings 11:4-6)

Since Joseph is posting to an exJW forum, I assume he was once a Bible believer. Since he no longer is, it appears to me that Joseph, like Solomon, lost some of the wisdom he once possessed.

VeniceIT

ok this is kinda off subject but in this scripture:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

What does he mean by 'all scrupture' the Catholics are who decided what went into the Bibcal canon several hundred years AFTER those words were penned. How do we know exactly what was included in that???

Secondly I tend to feel that perhaps the words 'inspired by God' aren't meant as we've always assumed. I think that perhaps teh Bible writters were moved by their love for God and their knowledge of him to write about him and the differnt events of their time so in that way he was their 'inspiration' rather then the thought that God sat down and told them every word to write. That makes more sense to me, because there are so many scriptures that make you wonder what they're doing in there, to say nothin of the Song of Solomen!!!!!

Ven

"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like no one is watching!!!"

GWEEDO

"what is truth"

pilate

one of the wisest and underrated lines from the NT...

Larsguy

Hi Joseph,

Song of Solomon along with Esther and Ecclesiates were not quoted from by the NT Bible writers and thus are not considered part of the official canon or inspired so Ecclesiastes doesn't count. Find some other passage to complain about, sorry.

Have a nice day.

L.G.

JosephAlward

I offered this passage to show that Solomon apparently rejected the notion of afterlife:

Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. (Ecclesiastes 3:18)

Faithful2Jah wrote,

Much of Ecclesiastes was obviously written to illustrate the perspective of a person who had lost much of his faith. These passages of scripture allow Bible readers to see how such a spiritually lost person views the world. God inspired their writing and saw to it that they were contained in the scriptures for this reason.

There is a big problem with your interpretation, Faithful. Before I explain, please read the passage below:

God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. Solomon's wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the men of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. (1 Kings 4:29-30)

How could it be possible, Faithful, for God to have given to Solomon wisdom and understanding that was immeasurable, greater than all the wisdom in the East, a wisdom and understanding that was virtually as near-infinite as the number of grains of sand on the seashore, but yet not have given him enough understanding to comprehend that there was an “afterlife,” as you say? Does this make sense to you?

Faithful responds with this passage:

"As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord ; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done." (1 Kings 11:4-6)

Faithful concludes from this passage that

Solomon...lost some of the wisdom he once possessed.

Faithful, you’re taking as evidence that Solomon lost his wisdom the fact that at some point later his life his heart turned away from the Lord to Ashtoreth and Molech, but we’re not talking about Solomon’s judgment after he lost his wisdom and understanding and turned to false gods. We are talking about the Solomon of an earlier time, a time when he wrote Ecclesiastes, a time when he still had sufficient wisdom and understanding to follow the “true” god of creation, "elohiym."

Faithful, if you want to claim that the Solomon who wrote Ecclesiastes, and who apparently didn’t accept the notion of an afterlife, had already lost his God-given wisdom and understanding, and was the Solomon who had turned toward Ashtoreth and Molech, you’ll have to explain why there is not a single reference to any god besides the god of Genesis creation, “elohiym,” anywhere in Ecclesiastes. There are forty references to “elohiym,” and not one to false gods.

The absence in Ecclesiastes of any hint that Solomon had turned toward Ashtoreth and Molech, and the repeated reference to only the “true” god of creation, elohiym, is consistent with Solomon still having the near infinite-wisdom and understanding God--according to the 1 Kings 4:29-30 author--had given him.

Thus, without evidence to the contrary, we should conclude that the Solomon in Ecclesiastes is the infinitely wise and understanding Solomon who apparently rejects the afterlife. Consequently, we must conclude that either that the author of 1 Kings probably was wrong about God giving Solomon so much understanding, or else the Ecclesiastes author was misguided, or else Solomon was right about there being no afterlife.

No matter how you look at it, the Bible seems to be in error, and if the Bible can be in error in this instance, it might be wrong in its account of the creation, and the flood, and even wrong about the resurrection.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Faithful2Jah

Joe wrote>>>>>>>>The absence in Ecclesiastes of any hint that Solomon had turned toward Ashtoreth and Molech, and the repeated reference to only the “true” god of creation, elohiym, is consistent with Solomon still having the near infinite-wisdom and understanding God--according to the 1 Kings 4:29-30 author--had given him.

Nope. The passage I quoted reads: "As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not FULLY devoted to the Lord his God." That means that, though Solomon continued to be a practicing Jew, his also paying attention to the many false religious teachings of some of his wives had caused him to lose faith in an afterlife.

Timeless Truths in the Bible

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