by Terry 31 Replies latest watchtower bible
There seems to be quite a list of messiah claimants on Wikipedia, it mentions Vespasian according to Josephus under Jewish messiah Claimants.
I don't think he was.
Are you actually saying that we cannot believe everything we read on Wikipedia??? I am destroyed - next you will probably suggest that Isadora Duncan did not die at the wheels of a Bugatti type 35... And yet - in another 3,000 years - perhaps the silliest Wiki postings may be taken to be the "word of God".
james_woods is that what you think i'm saying?
I think what it says on Wikipedia is probably correct regarding Vespasian, I don't know, and I think he was probably a false messiah.
I think there were false Christs and the true Christ in time may have needed to be identified more thoroughly
He is coming soon, Ucantnome - coming in the clouds.
His number (it is a West Coast number) is 747.
"True? True as demonstrated how? For every church father you have another church father who disagrees. The early church consisted of brawlers who burned each others congregations and started fist fights for not agreeing to some imagined orthodoxy.
You make it sound like everyone was running around burning churchs. Where, may I ask, did they have the time to dodge the Roman persecuters who until Constantine hunted down the Christians and killed them? Question: How are you able to rationalize why they early Christians were so willing to die if Christ's resurrection was a lie?
If a Church Father was in a position to BURN the writings of somebody who didn't see things their own way--THEY BURNED!
So because of your uncertainty and being ruined by the WTBS, you can't believe that God could actually reveal Himself, and then, actually protect the deposit of the faith in His Church? In your world, God must be pretty weak....
Besides, we have absolutely no ORIGINAL writings, autograph manuscripts or non-corrupt early writings. The earliest existingcopy of a copy of a copy is about the size of a postage stamp. The existing copies, of copies, of copies of copies were dragged out of rotting landfills and broken pots. Hardly a demonstration of Divine Preservation of Truth!
How would you determine if they were uncorrupt? If they lined up with your code of morality? Or would you only believe with your own eyes? Many of the writings of the early church fathers were preserved proving the true deposit of the faith, but somehow, I don't think that will make a difference to you.
You seem to think that truth can only be preserved via ink and paper. If it was so important, and if that were actually so, Christ would've written it Himself. This is a typical misunderstanding of how the Christian faith was transmitted. Christ did write something: the Apostles, who then passed on what they were orally taught.
I am not trying to change your position. I've read your posts on this forum for quite a long time. You seem to be an intelligent person. I hope you find God.
Isidore queries: You make it sound like everyone was running around burning churchs. Where, may I ask, did they have the time to dodge the Roman persecuters who until Constantine hunted down the Christians and killed them?
Terry says:
Eusebius answers you: Eusebius levels a charge against Christians, blaming a spirit of divisiveness for some of the most severe persecutions.
"But when on account of the abundant freedom, we fell into laxity and sloth, and envied and reviled each other, and were almost, as it were, taking up arms against one another, rulers assailing rulers with words like spears, and people forming parties against people, and monstrous hypocrisy and dissimulation rising to the greatest height of wickedness, the divine judgment with forbearance, as is its pleasure, while the multitudes yet continued to assemble, gently and moderately harassed the episcopacy." Isidore asks: Question: How are you able to rationalize why they early Christians were so willing to die if Christ's resurrection was a lie? TERRY ANSWERS: We could ask the same question of the muslim terrorists who were willing to fly passenger jets into the Twin Towers. The nature of a fanatic is that they are possessed by a vision of an alternate reality. Rational thinking is beyond their reach! ISIDORE SAYS: So because of your uncertainty and being ruined by the WTBS, you can't believe that God could actually reveal Himself, and then, actually protect the deposit of the faith in His Church? In your world, God must be pretty weak.... TERRY ANSWERS: Why argue over non-existing evidence of God preserving holy writings? If you go through my trash cans and dig out photos of my mom torn to bits and stacks of her moldy letters I've tossed out can I stand up and say theY are PRECIOUS to me and the fact that you FOUND them means they ARE PRESERVED? The fact remains this is not the best of all possible worlds and yet we are told that God is the best of all possible Gods. Devout and Pious apologists bend over backward defending that assertion. I simply state the facts as I see them. Isidore proffers: How would you determine if they(bible writings) were uncorrupt? If they lined up with your code of morality? Or would you only believe with your own eyes? Many of the writings of the early church fathers were preserved proving the true deposit of the faith, but somehow, I don't think that will make a difference to you. TERRY ANSWERS: How would I determine if the bible writings were corrupt? Well, first they would have to ACTUALLY EXIST. That is a tough one to hurdle, don't you think? We don't have any! What we have are years later hand-copied copies of hand-copied copies with NO WAY TO COMPARE THOSE COPIES with any existing ORIGINALS. The writings of the Early Church fathers are not holy--are they? No, I didn't think so. ISIDORE EXPLAINS: You seem to think that truth can only be preserved via ink and paper. If it was so important, and if that were actually so, Christ would've written it Himself. This is a typical misunderstanding of how the Christian faith was transmitted. Christ did write something: the Apostles, who then passed on what they were orally taught. TERRY ANSWERS: All of that is your assertion and not evidence. If scripture was not important and the Apostles pas sed on orally what Jesus explained to them I suppose the CATHOLIC CHURCH is really the correct magisterium for us all! I'm not against God. I'm against people who are puffed up with make-believe and certainty trying to pretend the lack of evidence is BETTER than evidence because they don't have anything to offer by way of proof. God is unknowable. We only have men's ridiculous interpretations of other men's ramblings and none of us need any of that. ISIDORE OFFERS: You seem to be an intelligent person. I hope you find God. I've had 66 years experience with what people say IS God. I found enough of all that. God can find me if He tires of inscrutable anonymity. I won't hold my breath!
Myelaine, I'm not sure I understand what you were saying...but then I don't understand what I'm saying half the time.
You said: “BUT, this is your "truth".
Actually, nothing I said was true. Just words. Just abstract symbols.
I was simply trying to describe a path to foundational truth, which is often practiced by a school of Hindu philosophy called Advaita Vedanta.
You also said: “WHAT if that input deprivation brings out the worst, unspeakable, "Who am I"”
That's a good question. Actually, I have never heard of that happening. It seems that the “worst” of us, what we may call evil, is fruit from the tree of thought and mind generated confusion and pain. When this impute is silenced, the demon starves and dies.
The premise is that there is, right here, right now, an underlying universal Truth, that supports and sustains all life and universes. Our Source.
When we are still...I mean really, really still of all thought and story telling, then there can be an openness, a portal, a moment of revelation as to what we really are, and our relationship to all.
There is no truth in these words. At best only a pointing finger (look). See for yourself. Experience.
There is no hand that knocks on the door that isn't there and the one who comes to answer wasn't home when no one called.
But, that's just my opinion!
Bingo about the Catholic Church, Terry. It's not that to figure out.
dear James Thomas...
let me see if I've understood what you've said correctly...ummm...not that your words actually mean anything or something
on your "pathless-path" (through meditation etc?) you have found that:"What does matter, amounts to one thing: how we treat each-other and all life and planet." BUT that isn't truth because if we are all part of the all the exact opposite could be just as true.
evil could be generated through thought and mind generated confusion but if it is and has been essentially part of the all...should it be silenced?...are we the ones to make that call?...would be be messing with the "Source"?...how would we know?
it seems to me, if no real truth only ambiguity can be found on this pathless path...isn't that really a waste of precious time?...even as little as 1/2 an hour spent on this pathless path could have been spent enjoying this life.
love michelle
Dear Myelaine,
Our mind's are capable of arguing against, or for, any point another may have, for ever. Because all reference that the mind relies on for its conclusions in nothing but symbols, which are many times removed from any reality. So, the mind can never know, nor relate to, nor give witness to what is fundamentally genuine and true, and so it just continues its illusionary ego-centric arguments and beliefs for ever. That's not bad, it's just the way it is.
Let's take it a little further in a direction that may help us understand the mind/brain limitations:
Our brain, and all matter, is made of atoms. An atom is mainly space; emptiness, nothingness. Which amounts to what?
If we gathered together every one of the seven billion people on earth, and piled all their atoms together and sucked away all the space in those atoms so that only the nuclei and electrons remained, what would be left?
An amount that would equal a sugar cube. How minuscule a fragment is "you" in that? One seven billionth of one teaspoon?
Now as far as what makes up that sugar cube, the atomic “particles” can be reduced down to pure energy, that have no solid existence either.
What I am getting to, is that all of our thoughts, ideas, and seeming “realities” are based on a mind/brain generated facade that has no real existence, because the mind/brain that created it, has little if any existence or connection to reality in itself.
So, in an epiphany, knowing this, we ask: what is, within us, TRUE? What do we intrinsically possess that can relate to deeper truth? What avenue remains for us to genuinly discover further?
We forgo all illusion: all thought, ideas, beliefs, dogma, memories, etc. So that out most intimate non-phenomenal sense of consciousness and existence may clearly see what IS.
If this makes any sense, then look, see, experience.
If not, then just see me a fool. No harm meant.
