23,720 JW child molesters

by silentlambs 62 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

Simon

Can I strongly suggest that people take a break for a while on this one and come back to it later?
It is an emotive issue and there are going to be differences of opinion, whatever the suggested number is.
We know it is between 1 and 6 million.
23,720 is what I would consider *low* and my maths makes this 1 in about 250. I have no idea whether this is low or high compared to the general population but it IS high if the group claims to be inspired and KNOWS about the abusers but does nothing.
Since when does the WTS need a court conviction to take action against someone? Just hint at the GB being wrong about something and you will be marched out and separated from your friends and family as many of us know.
Let's focus on what matters - helping the 1, 100, 10,000 23,000 or how ever many victims and preventing any more victims by getting the policy changed.
Simon

Also, please consider how this must feel to Bill
It's easy to forget how much work goes into things behind the scenes and it can be soul destroying to have it "torn to shreds".
Any of us who work on different things in our own way try to be 'professional', try to help and do what we can but occasionally we have a bad day, we get a load of criticism after a lot of hard work and I know I have felt at times like "giving someone both barrells" (verbally) because I have got angry or annoyed at the situation.
We're all human, we all have feelings, we all get rubbed up the wrong way sometimes.
Simon

BTW: For what it's worth ...
My own opinion is that 23,000 sounds believable as the number known on file.
Remember that if it's over say a 10 year period then the current 6 million membership ISNT a static number of people - many have come and gone in that time and the numer of people who HAVE been members at some point would be higher (someone will maybe know the figures better than me) which makes the ration lower. For all I know it could be over a 20 or 30 year period ...
I do pesonally find the 70-victims per abuser a little too high to believe but again, I don't know if this is based on someone in their whole lifetime, or just a particular type of creep or whether it's a published figure based on accepted research. I strongly suspect that maybe it's one of those things that we will never really *know* for sure.
Pathofthorns

Bill,
I can only imagine how incredibly emotionally draining it is to be in a situation where you are constantly addressing the needs of those who have suffered at the hands of horrible people. It is also no picnic dealing with the WT and they can frustrate you to no end.
Even so, I can only say that I was embarrassed and ashamed of how you treated good people on this board yesterday. By calling decent people names and evading requests for clarification and ranting "WT POLICY SUCKS" it is clear who behaved like a troll.
I hope you re-read and re-think your comments Bill. And re-read and re-think the comments of those who you called trolls. Reactions like that are unacceptable for someone in your position.
I have never corresponded with any of the others you labelled as "trolls", but I applaud their courage to seek clarification of such an important issue before just blindly accepting it, and I applaud the dignified and respectful way they approached such a sensitive topic. And who better to seek clarification on these matters than from the assumed authority on the matter himself? But only to be repeatedly ignored and labelled as trolls from the WT.
The exJW community has few loyalties and they question everything. They demand explanations and no longer 'just accept' things because someone says they should. If you don't understand this, or don't feel the need to explain your objectives in the face of 'sincere questions' (God, i feel like i am dealing with the WT all over again) then I am afraid your support or your position will not be as strong as it needs to be in the critical hour.
The questions and concerns raised are not trick questions and there is no devious intent. They are obvious questions that come up surrounding this issue that will not go away. Whether it is me that is asking them, or a reporter or a judge, you will not indefinitely be able to avoid them. And I'm not saying I can't be wrong on these things, but your evasiveness certainly is a cause for concern.
I realize many 'lambs' have put much hope and confidence in you. I don't wish to see them disappointed. I hope they all find that measure of peace that will carry them through.
Path
Pathofthorns

Simon
I accepted your suggestion and took a break from this thread for a good while. It is a sensitive matter and we are all treading carefully.
I just want to ask you how you would have reacted if me or someone else had called Bill Bowen a troll? You know I am one of the posters that has been here the longest and in that time, while not always correct on issues, I have been reasonable and calm and do not resort to name-calling. It is in my character to be this way.
Your excusing Bill's comments - comments that obviously made you feel uncomfortable, reveal a double standard that is only human to have, but that which is ultimately unfair and unethical.
I realize he could have had a bad day, but there is a pattern of behavior forming that you seem willing to excuse for Bill and not for others. I will not press this but instead I leave these things for you to consider.
I will also state that in this community, everyone is equal. I don't care whether you are a man or a woman or whatever capacity you served in while in the WT, how much money you make or what your background is - we are all equal. I don't have any allegence to anyone here, and no one should be viewed as more 'special' than another, or somehow exempt from criticism.
I hope you can appreciate the importance of the matters raised to Bill Bowen. They are important because to sensationalize issues or to make mistakes in accuracy does damage to the credibility of this community. Just like when newer ones might latch onto things such as "Russell was a Mason" or "The WT owns a bomb factory", it is very important to critically examine such claims to see if they are really true.
If Mr. Bowen is representing the community of victims of molestation within the congregation of JWs, then he needs to be sure all his facts and arguments are reasonable and in order. Reasonable criticism should be welcome to avoid disappointment down the road. If I and others are mistaken, I hope he can point that out with sound reasoning and I would be happy to accept such.
You raised this question:
Since when does the WTS need a court conviction to take action against someone?
If the WT takes action against someone, labelling them a molester when a court of law has dismissed such allegations, then the WT could be liable. You cannot destroy someone's character if the law has proclaimed them innocent.
The WT can discipline their members almost arbitrarily if they want to, and we see this all the time. But in this matter, if evidence is lacking, they cannot do so without facing possible legal consequences.
Let's focus on what matters - helping the 1, 100, 10,000 23,000 or how ever many victims and preventing any more victims by getting the policy changed
As you are aware, speculating on the number of victims is a meaningless exercise compared with seeing they get proper help.
Most people seem to feel that if WT policy is changed, that this will prevent future victims. Since present policy does not discourage individuals from going to the police or getting counselling, what major impact are people expecting further refinements of WT policy to have? What further changes are wanted that warrant this uproar that the WT IS A HAVEN FOR PEDOPHILES?
I am not saying past policies didn't fall short and elders didn't act incompently or wrongly. But if the problem is with the past and it can be proven, then by all means, bring on the lawsuits and fry the WT's ass.
All major responsibility falls on the parents to see that their children are safe and protected. If, despite their otherwise reasonable efforts to ensure their safety, something bad should happen, it is again, the parents responsibility to seek help for their children and to approach the authorities. Laying all blame at the feet of the WT is unreasonable.
While I don't sympathize with the WT, I do have to be fair and admit this is not a WT problem but one that society in general struggles with, and answers are not always as easy and obvious as they might appear.
Path
LyinEyes

If you doubt those numbers, just ask any ex elder if he ever had to deal with child molesters. I assure you he will say yes. And there are probably so many more cases that are not reported to the elders.
There is even incest going on to such a sickening degree in the south.
I was in a very small congregation only about 30 publishers and one bastard was molesting his own daughter at the age of 9 or so. I would have never have guessed he could have done such a thing. They are so evil and deceptive, they need to be castrated. And all that hide it ,the elders, right along with the molesters. Because not only is the child being molested by the pervert, the child is being abused by those who do not defend the helpless . I hope the dateline story will expose this gross practice and maybe it will open the eyes of parents who choose to stay in the JW org. to watch their kids and not trust anyone . For the childrens sake , something has to be done.
waiting

The questions and concerns raised are not trick questions and there is no devious intent. They are obvious questions that come up surrounding this issue that will not go away. Whether it is me that is asking them, or a reporter or a judge, you will not indefinitely be able to avoid them. - Path
Being a current student of Psych 101 (appropriate to now roll your eyes) - there is a term called "groupthink." What is involved is a group of persons who, over time, evolve into thinking alike - and much harm can be done. This study & word came into effect after Kennedy decided (with much military/political intelligence) to invade Cuba - referred to as The Bay of Pigs Incident. And the invasion failed miserably. After being studied - it was found that the intelligence of the people wasn't at fault - they just evolved into a group of one.....and said what they thought was appropriate - not necessarily what was knowledgely correct or would win the war.
Also missing was the "Devil's Advocate" - someone who would find the problems, bring them to light and the group could find a solution before the group gets a proverbial, or real, bomb up the ass. In major corporations & government now, many times a person is assigned the position of Devil's Advocate - so that there can be a balance to "groupthink" which tends to occur naturally. Of course, the person who fulfills the role of Devil's Advocate is usually unpopular (but sees The Other Side) - so the position usually changes periodically so that The Devil's Advocate isn't stoned to death.
Quote: The original brother will then list Body of Elders' letters discussing child molestation that the elders must review. He also gives instructions that if any new matters develop as to the accused, that is, if this person molests more children, the elders are to use the date of the first report as a reference point or the child molester's date of birth. This then means Watchtower's Legal Department can easily pull up the case on computer and add the new information - SilentLambs website
This is the most interesting paragraph! The number given of 23,720 of names on file at the WTBTS is ACCUSED persons of ALL sorts of child molestation. Some could be innocent - and many more could be still in secret and guilty.....just like in the Catholic Church and all of society at large. But it shows that the WTBTS is tracking these people - they've known they have a major problem for many years now.
What's really interesting is this: the Watchtower legal TRACKS these accused people, turns some over to the police (where states demand it), deals with others, and just watches all. If this name comes up again, and again, and again,.......well, something might be done....or not.
Path A Devil's Advocate is universally taking the unpopular side of the argument......but they show flaws or inconsistencies - or just inappropriate wording - and how to overcome those points before lawyers & reporters see the same things.
Bill, We all appreciate your work - and the majority of it we don't see. But we see your words. What? You'd prefer us to just clap our hands at your wonderfullness - fall into the natural trap of groupthink - Kennedy was president, and it haunted his administration into the history books decades later. Naaaaaaaaaa, we WANT you to be careful and correct. And, by far, for the largest part - you are. But, being a man, you need all the help you can get, sweetie. Ask your wife.
Please take this post as trying to bring moderation to this horrible mess that people find themselves in - child molestation. Nobody wins.
Respectful waiting
silentlambs

I stand behind my comments on this thread. As many of you may know I am not afraid to stand for what is morally and ethically right. For those of you who wish to criticize, I would ask you the questions, what have you done in the interest of changing wt policy and protecting children? What sacrifice have you made in the interest of helping people come to closure with the devastating effects of child molestation? How many victims have you actually talked to, consoled and tried to help? How many molesters have been turned into the police as a result of your efforts?
I have made the statement before that if everyone likes you it means you are not doing anything. I believe this thread is proof of that statement. For those of you who wish to defend wt policy on child molestation you make yourself an enemy of anyone associated with silentlambs. It is that simple. The fight for what is right will not be diluted by misinformation and people with misplaced sympathies. IF you do not like that position then I suggest you either make clearly known your support of those who hurt children or stay away from this topic.
Waiting,
I might clarify a comment you made regarding the child molesters on file with WT. No record is made of accused child molesters who deny the allegation and do not have two eyewitnesses to establish their guilt. You need to read the latter part of my comments on this matter. The 23,720 figure as I pointed out are only those who basically confess, the and only then are they placed in the "specialized shepherding arrangement" program. This fact alone shows the actual number must be far greater than the "confessed" list.
Yes, wt legal is supposed to be called in any report of child molestation. The elders will be asked to investigate, if they are in one of the 16 states that require reporting elders will be asked to comply, but that does not mean they be included on the "list"
of molesters with wt. If you review the letter to BOE in England you will find substance to support this viewpoint. I know of several cases where brothers were convicted and went to jail as JW in good standing, even pioneering in jail. Do you think they made the list? Confessed child molesters cannot pioneer. This is a complicated issue, it needs to be explained and I hope this helps in that regard.
Regarding your comments regarding the "devil's advocate" I welcome criticism and any comments that help better define and address the best way to approach this issue. We have made adjustments and will continue to do so. On the other hand when absurd and ludicrous allegations are made I ignore them rather than waste my time to try and reason with stupidity. An example of such would be this comment:
________________________________________________________
Most people seem to feel that if WT policy is changed, that this will prevent future victims. Since present policy does not discourage individuals from going to the police or getting counseling, what major impact are people expecting further refinements of WT policy to have? What further changes are wanted that warrant this uproar that the WT IS A HAVEN FOR PEDOPHILES?
________________________________________________________
Present WT policy does discourage victims from going to the police. The latest comments in the 2-02 BOE letter stated, "if the parents go or choose not to go to the police they are not to be sanctioned." It took wt 20 years to put this in writing, why? because they knew parents were being discouraged from going to the police and they purposely did nothing about it. If this had not been made an issue we would not have anything in writing to this day. The entire investigative process discourages parents from going to the police. After the child is traumatized by the untrained elder investigation, they then have to go through a judicial hearing in which they face a second tramatization while being brought face to face with the child molester. At this point the child is so messed up, their testimony has been tainted by the process and the actual police if turned to will have a difficult time at best getting to the truth of the matter. I define that as "discouraged." No where in any publication written by wt are parents encouraged to call and report child molestation as a first option. The second absurd statement regards counseling. This is a well known fact within that counseling is frowned upon. If you do seek counseling it is only by "approved" counselors who can basically only be JW counselors. Are JW truly the only best counselors for child molestation victims? Comments such as the above waste my time as they ignore the mountain of evidence and continue to hold to a viewpoint that endorses wt policy while ignoring the damage it is doing. This is not a devil's advocate position it is basic propaganda to misinform readers of what the actual problem is. It’s what I refer to a troll tactics to muddy the water and confuse those who do not understand the issue. On the other hand if it is truly pure ignorance then the individual who refuses to educate themselves and hold to absurd conclusions needs to be recognized for what they are. If finally they are just stupid, then they ought to shut up instead of shooting their mouths off about a process they do not understand. I find it interesting those who wish to challenge my comments the most always do so publicly and never email or use the phone to contact me and really try and find an actual answer.
Those who wish to cut and run from this issue are not required to support silentlambs in any sense. It is a free country and you have a right to your opinion. The effort to change wt policy in the interests of protecting children will continue. I believe those who support us will be appreciated, those who want to offer constructive criticism will be listened to, those who wish to support wt policy with stupid and absurd statements will be ignored for simple recognition of their agenda to support those who hurt children.
waiting

Quote: When a pedophile is revealed within a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Body of Elders appoints two of their number to investigate the allegation to see if there is any substance to the charge. If the claim is established upon investigation, then the local Body of Elders appoints two of their number to call Watchtower's Legal Department to report the matter. The Legal Department representative then fills out a computerized form using a question and answer format over the telephone.
If two elders who investigate an allegation are not able to establish the matter at the mouth of "two eye witnesses" will the “specialized shepherding arrangement” see anything recorded at Patterson , New York ? Please note in the letter to all Body of Elders in England , dated June 1, 2001 , this comment:
__________________________________________________________________
"There are, however, many other situations that are connected with the abuse of a child. For example, there may be just one eyewitness, and the brother denies the allegation. (Deuteronomy 19:15; John 8:17) Then again, a young child might be abused by someone who himself is a minor, perhaps in his pre- or early-teens. In these and similar cases no entry will be made on the Child Protection List. Rather, information should be kept in a sealed envelope in the congregation's confidential file as described below. When such individuals move, the Congregation Service Committee should write a letter addressed to the Society's Legal Department seeking advice as to whether to communicate the details to the new congregation."
This appears to indicate that the local congregations keep the information and only if the accused molester moves would any consideration be given to check with Watchtower Legal or even alerting the new congregation. Are these individuals considered part of the 23,720 molesters on file?
If not, then the logical conclusions would be that there are far more accused child molesters than the 23,720 on file who have either confessed or been convicted at the mouth of "two eye witnesses." Taking into account the number of 93,154 congregations worldwide, a conservative estimate would mean one child molester for every four congregations, based on the 23,720 figure. (end quote)
I didn't get that from your first post - nor from the initial reading of this information at your sight. I forget that the WTBTS has different language and qualifications for who can be accurately referred to as an "accused." A man/woman with two witnesses to the act of child molestation, or one witness with him/her confessing. Young teenagers don't count. And, of course, "similiar cases" - which is left undefined. Anyone who didn't meet these rigorous standards of accusation wouldn't be heard any further than a local elder.
******************************************************
The entire investigative process discourages parents from going to the police. After the child is traumatized by the untrained elder investigation, they then have to go through a judicial hearing in which they face a second tramatization while being brought face to face with the child molester. At this point the child is so messed up, their testimony has been tainted by the process and the actual police if turned to will have a difficult time at best getting to the truth of the matter. I define that as "discouraged." No where in any publication written by wt are parents encouraged to call and report child molestation as a first option. -bill
I understand better now what your saying about being "discouraged" - and the ramifications afterwards. To be quite honest, for the length of time this subject has been talked about on the net, this is the best explanation I've read about what "discouragement from reporting to police" really can refer to.
A jw will normally think of the word "discouraged" as a somewhat silent counseling in the KH - such as "he was discouraged from pursuing a college degree." He will not think of it as a whole plethora of acts, words and connotations.
That's actually only a small part of what you're referring to. It's an agenda of actions, or lack thereof. Now, in many places, even parents are counseled by therapists & police to not even ask their children specifics of molestation - because even in the words we use, we can "taint" their thinking and replies.
If a child has to basically "go to court" against their molester - even if it's "only" just in front of God, the elders, their parents, and the molester - the inaccuracy of the questions & answers in that arena could tear a kid apart - and ruin a police & medical investigation. I'm guessing it's been done more than once - as for years, kids weren't to be trusted - again, universal.
Thanks for this further explanation of the term "discouraged" as used in this context. Makes a world of difference. I, however, strongly believe in the position and use of a Devil's Advocate. I believe it's a necessity and makes for a stronger, more lucid, argument - such as you've presented here.
As we've all said before, we appreciate your work. And now I understand it just a tad better.
Thanks.
waiting
plmkrzy

For those of you who wish to defend wt policy on child molestation you make yourself an enemy of anyone associated with silentlambs. It is that simple. The fight for what is right will not be diluted by misinformation and people with misplaced sympathies. IF you do not like that position then I suggest you either make clearly known your support of those who hurt children or stay away from this topic.
Bill,
You upset me so much regarding this subject I could have jumped right through my computer and choked you to death if I could. I had to delete a couple of previous posts I left here and leave this thread alone. My blood pressure went sky high.
I am calm now and I will say a couple of things to you and leave it at that.
You seem to be so engulfed in your pursuit against the WTS you have become blind.
You are spouting out things towards people that are completely uncalled for. You seriously need to examine your self and how you are choosing to handle your own affairs because what you do and how you choose to go about doing it WILL EFFECT REAL VICTIMS.
One of my nephews was molested many years ago and still has not received the settlement that was given to him. $1,400,000.00 give or take it all because this was settled 15 years ago and he still has not seen a dime.
Both of my sons were molested by a close friend of the family.
When I became aware of what was happening and pressed charges I was badly beaten and repeatedly raped. That is only a small tip of the iceberg that my children and I have been recovering from.
I know very well what it is to fight something bigger then you.
I also know what it is to literally put my life on the line many times over to protect someone.
Your accusations towards others and me are repulsive.
You have been the only one spouting WT! WT! WT!
I am a REAL person My children are REAL people MY Nephew is a REAL person and raising a family of his own now.
You want to know about fighting a system and being a survivor come over to my house.
I know what hurts and what helps. I’ve been in training for more then thirty years now and I think I know a thing or two.
If you don't hear anything I have tried to say to you then that will speak for itself.

No matter how thin you slice it there are always two sides

23,720 JW child molesters

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