Honoring Parents

by JosephAlward 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    This is my response to a true believer who emailed me about my claims that the Gospel stories were plagiarized from Scriptural antecedents, and about my claim that Jesus showed disrepect for parents--if you can believe the Bible:

    Do you have proof -- not your insights -- for your claim that the Bible is nothing but a mimmic of ancient myth?

    No proof. Evidence is all I have. You have to realize that there is no proof which you would accept that the Bible's stories about Jesus are based on Scriptural antecedents. Even if you were to find in the Bible--the book you trust above all others--a passage which described how all of the stories about Jesus are fake, you would just say that God deliberately put that passage their to test our faith. Those who believed it would be consigned to hell, perhaps because they failed to read and understand the implications of Proverbs 14:15. Thus, you see, "proof" to you and other true believers cannot ever be produced.

    And now that I've explained the supposed "Honor your parents" issue, are you prepared to take that article down?

    Perhaps in your mind you've debunked my article, but you have not said a word about Jesus' apparent disrespect he showed to the unburied father. Would you not expect that Jesus would have at least let the poor man go to bury his father, if indeed Jesus taught that one should honor and respect his parents? This is not a question of the dead father standing between the son and God, is it? Now, which is more reasonable, that Jesus actually behaved this way, or the author of this verse was mistaken?

    Also, what about this:

    Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother...cannot be my disciple.(Luke 14.26)

    This is totally inconsistent with honoring and respecting one's parents, isn't it? Which is more likely, then? That Luke was mistaken, and Jesus never said this, or he did say it?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Luke 14:26 in its totality reads: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple."

    Is Jesus really teaching disrespect here? Not if one understands that this is a parable meant to teach the demands of discipleship.
    While Luke 14:16-24 places emphasis on the absolute gratuity of God's election, verses 25-35 develop the flip-side of that election, full-hearted response on the part of disciples. The parable calls on the necessity of reflection before action. Those who want to follow Jesus on the way must weigh the costs. Jesus' followers must not recoil before any "sacrifice" required of them to see their following of him through the end. Disciples must place Jesus above everyone and everything else. And if you can't make HIM number one, then you really can't be his disciple. You can't be half-hearted toward Jesus.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    "Honor your father and mother" (Matt 19:19)

    Luke thinks that Jesus requires his followers to hate their parents, "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother...cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14.26)

    And Matthew thinks that when a disciple begged for permission to bury his father, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father," Jesus told him to let him rot: "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." (Matthew 8:21-22) Is this the same Matthew who told us that Jesus told his disciples to love their parents?

    In regards to the story in Luke, Kenneson writes,

    this is a parable meant to teach the demands of discipleship... You can't be half-hearted toward Jesus.
    By “parable,” you mean that Jesus did not mean for his disciples literally to hate their parents? If that’s the case, then don’t you think that Jesus, who allegedly was the son of the infinitely wise and all-knowing God, would have known that his words would be misinterpreted, if indeed Luke was quoting Jesus accurately? Why couldn’t Jesus just have said, “I expect you to put the needs of God before those of your parents”? That would have been possible without literally hating their parents, right?

    And, why couldn’t the disciple run off and bury his father? He could have done that, and still given this heart fully to Jesus, couldn’t he? If you claim that this, too, is parabolic speech, not to be taken literally, then was the man actually allowed to go bury his father, or not? If so, why didn’t Matthew tell us that?

    The absence of the clarifying information suggests strongly that Matthew wasn’t guided by God in writing this tale, because if he had been inspired, God would have known that we would think that Jesus really didn’t let the poor man bury his father, so God would have made sure that Matthew explained that wasn’t the case at all. The same is true for the Luke's tale; if it were inspired by God, God would have made sure that the readers understood that disciples were not expected literally to hate their parents. The absence of this clarification suggests that Luke, too, was not guided by God when he wrote his gospel, and thus may have been mistaken.

    Which seems more reasonable: Luke and Matthew were mistaken about what Jesus said, or that Jesus really did say those words, but they were not meant to be taken literally?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Joe

    I know you are correct about the foreign influences in Christianity, but you got to pick your fights.Interpretation of scripture to disprove scripture is slippery ground.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Peaceful says,

    Interpretation of scripture to disprove scripture is slippery ground.

    Peaceful if you will explain what you mean by "interpretation of scripture to disprove scripture," and how it specifically applies to my remarks to Kenneson, I will try to respond.

    Note added later: Peaceful, I imagine you are saying that it's easy to show Bible error if one is free to interpret the Bible any way one wishes, and of course I agree with this. If one had the freedom to do this without constraint, then one could show every verse in the Bible is contradictory, inconsistent, or in error. This is the "slippery slope" you may have had in mind. And it would slope both ways, too; a true believer would be free to interpret the Bible any way that is necessary to "prove" that the Bible is not in error.

    However, if the interpretations are viewed as reasonable and based on logic, and not on faith or speculation, then conclusions based on these interpretations are more likely to be seen as plausible by objective observers than are conclusions based on faith or pure speculation.

    If one can make the case that one is interpreting the Bible objectively--with one's mind, not with the heart--then I think there is little danger in drawing conclusions based on those interpretations.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Joe writes: Which seems more reasonable: Luke and Matthew were mistaken about what Jesus said, or that Jesus really did say those words, but they were not meant to be taken literally.

    I figure that Matthew & Luke both understood what Jesus was saying.
    The problem is how it comes through to you and I. And apparently we both perceive it differently. And I'll leave it at that.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Kenneson writes,

    I figure that Matthew & Luke both understood what Jesus was saying.
    How do you know that either of them were with Jesus at the time he said these things? Might they both just have been reporting what Jesus was traditionally believed to have said? Consider the example of Jesus' private prayer at Gethsemane:

    He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch." Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." (Mark 14:33-36)
    How could Mark have known what Jesus said to God? Jesus was alone. The disciples closest to him were Peter, James, and John, and they were left behind to keep watch while Jesus prayed; Mark was nowhere to be seen.

    It is evident, therefore, that Mark's account of Jesus' prayer was not eyewitness testimony, so it must have been based on what someone told him. So, if one of Mark's stories was a hand-me-down, why couldn't the same be true for all of them, and likewise for Matthew and Luke?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    I must agree with you that the Gospel writers were not all eyewitnesses of Jesus. Luke in Chapter 1:3 indicates that his sources are second-hand. He certainly appears as a companion and fellow worker of Paul in Col. 4:14; 2 Tim. 4:11 and Philemon 24. He probably got much of his information from Paul. Mark is believed to have been a companion of Paul (Phil. 24;
    Col 4:10; 2 Tim. 4:10) as well as Peter (2 Peter 5:13). Paul's testimony is based on a vision. Peter claimed to be an eyewitness. Matthew in
    chapter 9:9 and 10:3 is an apostle and is believed to be responsible for the book after his name. He would have been an eyewitness.

    The writers had good sources and good teachers. Why would they not have understood Jesus' teachings as it was handed down to them,
    albeit if not all of them received it directly from His mouth?

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Kenneson wrote,

    Matthew in chapter 9:9 and 10:3 is an apostle and is believed to be responsible for the book after his name. He would have been an eyewitness.

    The writers had good sources and good teachers. Why would they not have understood Jesus' teachings as it was handed down to them, albeit if not all of them received it directly from His mouth?

    I have to question this, Kenneson. You say that the apostle Matthew "is believed" to have been the writer, but where is the evidence of this? The author of Matthew never gives the slightest hint that he is the apostle. Instead, there is strong evidence to the contrary. Read what the author of the Book of Matthew has to say about "himself":

    As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. (Matthew 9:9)
    Does this sound like something the apostle Matthew would write about himself? Speaking of himself in the royal third person? Jesus never spoke of himself this way, so we hardly should imagine that Matthew would be so presumptuous as to do so.

    You also say that the "writers had good sources and good teachers," but how do you know this? You cannot assume that their teacher was Jesus, since that is the very point in contention. Who were their sources and teachers, and how do you know?

    Now, as for Matthew, there is extremely strong evidence that he manufactured his stories about Jesus. He took what he thought were foreshadowing stories in Scripture and adapted them to fit Jesus. Why? To make it seem that his "Jesus" was the messiah prophesied in Scripture. However, he made many laughably bad mistakes in interpretation. I won't go into all of them here; you can consult my web page for those stories. I'll just mention one here, again.

    One example of Matthew's bumbling is found in his story of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Matthew bases this fictional story on a misunderstood story in Scripture. In that story, the prophet speaks of a king riding a donkey--a colt (a young male donkey), the foal of a donkey:

    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Zechariah 9:9 NASB)

    Obviously, Zechariah didn’t mean that the king was riding a donkey and a colt; he was merely telling us that the donkey was a colt foal (young son) of a donkey.

    Unfortunately for Matthew, he thinks the prophet meant that there were two animals: a donkey, and a colt, instead of just a donkey that was a young colt. Thus, Matthew invents a story in which Jesus sends his disciples to fetch an ass and a colt, so that Jesus might ride on them into Jerusalem. The other gospel writers weren't so foolish. Here is the evidence.

    Matthew: Jesus Sent for an Ass and a Colt

    And …then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me… All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. (Matthew 21:1-5)

    Mark, Luke, and John, understood Zechariah; according to them, Jesus sent his disciples after only one animal. Mark and Luke call the animal a "colt," and John calls it an "ass," and all three versions are compatible with the "prophesy" in Zechariah, wherein the animal is described as a donkey that is a colt.

    None of them have Jesus send his disciples to fetch two animals, as was the case in Matthew's story. Here are the stories by Mark, Luke, and John:

    Mark: Jesus Sent for a Colt

    And …he sendeth forth two of his disciples, And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him…And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. (Mark 11:1-7)
    Luke: Jesus Sent for a Colt

    Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. …35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon. (Luke 19:30-35)
    John: Jesus Sent for an Ass

    And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. (John 12: 14-15)
    The conclusion is inescapable: Matthew thought Zechariah was referring to two animals, so he invented a story in which Jesus sends his disciples to fetch two animals, but it is obvious that Zechariah was referring to just one animal. Thus, Matthew was mistaken, and his error is compounded by the fact that the fictional story he created was based on this error.

    (Much of information in this post was lifted verbatim from the article at http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Triumphal_Entry.htm)

    So we see that not only is zero evidence that the "apostle" Matthew the writer of the gospel, there is good evidence that he was not the writer. Furthermore, we see evidence that the author of the Book of Matthew, whoever he was, invented stories about Jesus.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Joe

    There are no objective interpretors of scripture.Interpretation involves subjective judgement.Bias is inherent.You will find it difficult going.Your audience has already drawn conclusons from this material.You may be more successful introducing facts completely new to your readers,such as some specifc cases of antecedent paralells. Only a thought.Good luck

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit