Greg Stafford's New Book Has Shipped

by AlanF 50 Replies latest jw friends

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  Pathofthorns

  Thanks for that excerpt from Stafford's book Alan. It would almost seem that he is having his own crisis of conscience.

  ... the structure of the organization is such that it has created an environment where error is not only tolerated, but in some cases it seems to be knowingly advanced at the expense of others. This is not only unacceptable in and of itself, but such actions or policies threaten to destroy or negatively affect all of the positive teachings that one might point to in defense of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  No one human alive today is given authority by the Scriptures to require that others accept all of the different teachings of an organization in order to be considered a true Christian. A person's belief in the importance of God's name should not be affected by whether they accept or reject the Watchtower's doctrine concerning 1914 CE. And no Christian should feel they have to abandon faith in God and in the Bible simply because there may be a question about the Watchtower's blood policy.

  He certainly is walking a fine line. While I think some elders in some congregations would not tolerate someone stating such, I also think there is evidence the Society could be turning a blind eye to statements like this. This might be because they know these things are true and that many of their valued men have raised these same points. I think they also know what they intend to do in the near future and to take action against people that have forseen it looks very foolish.

  Path
• 

  Gopher

  Steveb1 and AlanF:

  You are correct to assume that Matthew Alfs is no longer a practicing Jehovah's Witness, at least according to sources here in Minnesota where he lived when he published his books defending the Witnesses.

  -J.R., member, UADNA-MN
  (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Minnesota division)

  This post was not evaluated by any mental health professionals.
  Any opinions expressed are those of a fuzzy, cuddly rodent.
• 

  AlanF

  To crownboy:

  :: Penton developed misgivings over a long period of time, and if I remember right, it was the flack that the Society gave him over his "JWs in Canada" book that pushed him far into the camp of critics.

  : Why did the Society give Penton flack over a book that was pro-JW? I've never read it, but in Apocalypse Delayed Penton said it was a very pro-JW book. Did he have a couple of negative things in there?

  There was nothing negative at all. Quite the opposite. Penton says that the reason is simple: the Society wants to be the only source of information among JWs for the JW community. By writing his book, Penton stepped on their turf. Infantile? Yes. But the Society's leaders are not known for their studied responses to many situations.

  It was essentially the same with Jay Hess, as Stevieb1 mentioned. Hess had written a booklet JWs Are Not False Prophets which was circulated fairly widely among JWs. Certain men in Bethel became jealous of their turf and found a way to have Hess disfellowshipped, namely, over a rather minor matter of interpretation of some scripture.

  To ISP:

  : I guess Greg won't makes so much money this time 'round!!!! Apologetic books are highly valued by the WTS/dubs...they are also rare!!!

  I have no clue how much money Greg made with his previous books, but I doubt that it was much. These books are never sold in large quantities. Twenty thousand would probably be a generous figure. Given the usual printing costs from self-publishing, my impression is that most such books barely break even. The JWs I've talked to who are not tapped into the online community generally have no idea who Stafford is.

  To Pathofthorns:

  : It would almost seem that he is having his own crisis of conscience.

  I certainly agree.

  : He certainly is walking a fine line. While I think some elders in some congregations would not tolerate someone stating such, I also think there is evidence the Society could be turning a blind eye to statements like this. This might be because they know these things are true and that many of their valued men have raised these same points. I think they also know what they intend to do in the near future and to take action against people that have forseen it looks very foolish.

  That's right, and is what Ros has intimated. The Society is truly between a rock and a hard place with this kind of situation. Before the Internet, their response would have been completely predictable, but the Society detests adverse publicity -- especially when they know it's valid -- and they'll do all sorts of out-of-character things to avoid it. Look at how tolerant they've been of the rather outrageous conduct (by JW standards) of the tennis players Venus and Serena Williams. If your average Dub did what they do, they'd be booted out on their asses right quick!

  To Gopher:

  Thanks for confirming the information about Matthew Alfs.

  AlanF
• 

  Thirdson

  Thanks Alan for your post on Mr. Stafford's new book.

  I ordered a copy this evening. I even listed www.jehovahs-witness.com as the source of where I heard about his web site. I hope I get it before he pulls the plug in an effort to stave off disfellowshipping.

  Thirdson
• 

  TheStar

  I pre-ordered this book so long ago it seems ages. It was during my still questioning stage and I had also ordered Furuli's and Greg's other book. I have heard nothing and forgot all about it until now.

  When you click on the book title on the Elihubooks.com website it has this statement in red.

  The final contents and page count of this book have changed. This book will be 232 pages plus front matter. The new Table of Contents is as follows:
  
  Table of Contents
  Why Three Dissertations?
  
  FIRST DISSERTATION
  Authority Among Jehovah's Witnesses
  
  The Authority of the "Great Crowd" 7
  The Authority of the "Faithful Slave" 15
  EXCURSUS:
  Charles T. Russell - "The Faithful Slave"? 34
  Notes to the First Dissertation 40
  
  SECOND DISSERTATION
  Jehovah's Witnesses' Chronology
  
  1798 64
  1799 65
  1829 65
  1840 66
  1844 66
  1846 67
  1859 67
  1873 68
  1874 69
  1875 71
  1878 72
  1881 75
  1908 79
  1910 80
  1914 81
  1915 94
  1918 98
  1919 101
  1919 101
  1921 101
  1922 102
  1924 103
  1925 103
  1926 109
  1975 110
  Conclusion 115
  Notes to the Second Dissertation 116
  
  THIRD DISSERTATION
  Food at the Proper Time
  
  The Identity of God and His Son 155
  The Name of God 163
  Blood Transfusions 170
  Legalism 197
  Notes to the Third Dissertation 212
  
  APPENDIX
  Have the "Gentile Times" Ended? 239
  
  Bibliography 259
  Index 277

  Anyone know what the Table of context was before?
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  I think the best thing for bible believing christians to do is pray for Greg. It is clear from Greg's writtings and his actions (being independent of the WT by constructing his own JW's apologetics outside of the WT, implying the insuficiency of the WT Society to defend itself from bible believing evangelicals) that he knows of the obvious dielectical tentions that are in the WT system of doctrine. Greg knows there is something desperatly wrong with the WT. I pray that the Lord will show mercy upon Greg in which GOD will open up his eyes and regenerate him unto life so that Greg will embrace the gospel.

  Sola Fide,
  jr
• 

  accuracy

  Is Greg Stafford saying anything different from what Ray Franz said (originally)?

  Hopefully, the times have changed and the passing years have brought in a dose of humility to the organization, and Mr. Stafford will not have to suffer the fate of Mr. Franz.
• 

  Unclepenn1

  Well said Clash city! I think you took the words right out of my mouth.

  Penn
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  concerned mama

  I have tried to get several of the books you have mentioned from our public library. As the wait has been very long, I enquired. The library has had problems with these books disappearing and sometimes the only remaining copy has had to be kept in restricted areas, and is not available to take out. What a nuisance!
• 

  Alf3831

  <<If I remember correctly James White debated Greg Stafford and crushed thoroughly. If you have real audio you can catch the details here http://www.straitgate.com/jw021200.ram >>

  Dear Sir,

  Just a point of correction here. Although there have been attempts to schedule a face to face debate between James White and Greg Stafford, such has never taken place. I believe the radio show you cite has a discussion between James White and a JW apologist named "Rick."

  To my knowledge, Greg has only had three discussions on radio. These were with Craig Hawkins, Robert Bowman, and recently with a radio program in San Diego, Ca.

  ---Alf3831---