Chance?

by Seraphim23 19 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Seraphim23

  I don’t know much about art but I know what I like. (0:

  Well let’s hope I get some input to see if indeed iron sharpens iron.
• 

  talesin

  So much to learn, so little time! :))

  xo

  t
• 

  rawe

  Hi Seraphim23,

  "Does anyone really think that chance created existence?"

  Your question seems to falls into a category of "origin of..." questions. I am not sure what existence you're talking about, is it origin of life? Or origin of the Universe? Origin of anything that exists, such as a rock or lake or river?

  The word "chance" is often used in Awake! and The Watchtower when the subject of the origin of life is under discussion or the theory of evolution. The odd thing about the role of "chance" is physics and biological systems is that it is not unconstrained and arbitrary. The "chance" of the exact sperm fertilizing the exact egg that became you is extrodinarily improbablle event -- but clearly it did happen. On the other hand, once fertilized, there was no "chance" your mother would give birth to a mouse.

  What is though is unconstrained and completely arbitrary? Of course that is the actions of a divine being. When the Canadian Bethel was under construction and in need of a larger water storage tank, Jehovah arranged for it take place according to his will. Yet when the Lillelid family tried to witness to a group of young people at a rest stop, rather than bless their effort, Jehovah looked on as the family was murdered. What exactly causes Jehovah to act in the first case but not the second? Or in any case for the matter? I personally believe the answer is a simple as Jehovah does not exist. But if you really believe he exists and acts, then it really would be a belief in a profound sense of chance happening.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
• 

  Seraphim23

  Not quite sure what you mean with the JW thing. I’m talking about the origin of existence itself. The beginning of all beginnings, if there is one?
• 

  return of parakeet

  Seraphim: " Does anyone really think that chance created existence? "

  No one here was around when it happened.
• 

  rawe

  Hi Seraphim23,

  "I’m talking about the origin of existence itself. The beginning of all beginnings, if there is one?"

  To me the best way to think of orign of... questions is a matter of running the clock backwards and seeing where that takes you. For example, the origin of earth is throught to be tied to a giant dust cloud that was in orbit of the Sun much like the rings orbit Saturn. The fact that all the planets orbit the Sun in the same direction and on the same plane tends to support that idea.

  The origin of the universe likewise is often a question of running the clock backwards. Since the universe is expanding, it stands to reason the universe in the past was a smaller and hotter place. Just how far back can you take this? Alas, not all the way! As you go further back and get the universe into a smaller and smaller and hotter and hotter space the calculations begin to break down. We must then say, we don't know. All we know is that the universe is here.

  Calling it "chance" doesn't seem to help in my view. In fact all the words one could use, breakdown and make little sense. You can't talk about "before" the Big Bang, because "before" relates to time and time doesn't exist until after the Big Bang event. You can't talk about "cause and effect" because, again, that is an artifact of our universe. So, the best word we can come up with is "nothing." Although such a word seems odd, as far as I can tell, it has been chosen to reflect that fact that what is being discussed is exactly not anything within the physical universe.

  Cheers,

  -Randy

  ps. In regards to the JW thing, I was just responding to simplistic dismissive use of the word "chance" one finds in Awake! and The Watchtower.
• 

  Seraphim23

  Oh see. I don’t even think Watchtower anymore as it’s been years since I was there.

  If we were to suppose that logic and reason still functions before the big bang, even though the mathematics breakdown in a singularity, because properties go infinite, like the big bang, I would think that cause and effect still must work. Doesn’t that if true mean infinity, if one is to avoid the something form nothing scenario? Of course infinity is also implied by the mathematics breaking down in a singularity.
• 

  rawe

  Hi Seraphim23,

  No matter how we look at it we have a boundary problem. Over the years I've grown comfortable to simple say, we don't know and it may be impossible to know. Logic and reason for example applies only in our universe. We're trapped in the box we're trying to explain. I will say this, if going back to a singularity is a problem, Rodger Penrose book Cycles of Time gave me pause by thinking in the other direction. So, what happens if we imagine the universe going on expanding into the far future. According to Penrose you eventually lose all the identify of the universe, including matter, space and time. And... this might be the setup for the next cycle, the next big bang event. I found the model very interesting if mind warping! Because one needs to let go of what you would normally think of as the "singularity."

  The BB tends to make us think of a single point, not something that was vastly spread out in the prior cycle. But... if I've got the gist of Penrose, a vastly spread out universe would eventually lose the concept of space and time and would then be from the perspective of the other side a singularity.

  Not wanting to pump too much into this thread all at once, but aw, what the heck... last week I watch a Lawrence Krauss video on A Universe From Nothing. The main point as I understood it had to do with the values that would regulate the expansion of the universe we see and that such is consistent with the energy of empty space (i.e. "nothing"). That there are actual solid mathematical reasons to say the universe came from nothing. The problem I have with both Penrose and Krauss is my own ability to comprehend is limited. I listen and try and aborb, but I don't have any sense I really get it.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
• 

  HarryMac

  Brain...overload...

  ...

  'I like apples'.
• 

  HarryMac

  Also, yeah, great post Tal.

  Reminds me of - and Comatose may appreciate this - they way I view my recovery.

  eg: 'Harry... were you born an alcoholic... or born with perpensity for it... or did it all to yourself?'

  Harry: 'Who gives a shit really, in the big picture,... I don't drink anymore'

  so, yeah, the parallel is that the end result is the same behaviour today, regardless.

  Specifically...bang my wife... sober...

  Thank you! I'm here all week!