Does Knowledge of Evil Condemn Us?

by JosephAlward 63 Replies latest jw friends

aChristian

Gweedo,
You wrote: So if I dont believe this [Jesus was and is God], I'm not a Christian?
No, you are not.
You wrote: I know heaps of Christians who dont believe the above...I was one.
I know of none. I know of a lot of cult members who presently have a relationship with men and not with God, who falsely identify themselves as Christians, who don't believe Jesus was and is God. I was one.
You wrote: And yet no man has seen God. But people saw Jesus.
Christians believe that when Jesus was on earth he was both fully man and fully God. At that time people saw Jesus the man. However, this does not prove that Jesus was not then also God.
Water can exist as both ice and steam. But it cannot exist in both forms simultaneously. However, water is physical. God is spiritual. God created physical laws for the benefit of physical objects and physical beings. Because He did, and because He is not a physical being, He was, at the time Christ walked this earth, not subject to our physical laws. Thus, unlike water which can exist in more than one form but not simultaneously, God was then able to be both fully God and fully man simultaneously. Impossible you say? For man, yes. For God, no. For what seems impossible to man is not impossible to God. For with God all things are possible.
You wrote: eeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ***headache***need****asprin****
You would think a divine perfect being could have written a book that was a little more clear, and a little less contradictory.
I hear that Dr. Michael Debakey, the famous heart surgeon, is a very smart man and that he knows a lot about human anatomy. That being the case, he should have no trouble explaining it all to an ant. And since Debakey is so smart and knows so much about human anatomy, and would thus be able to teach it quite well, the ant should have no trouble fully understanding all Debakey explains to it on the subject matter.
Substitute God for Debakey, God's nature for human anatomy and us for the ant.
Do I really have to provide "proof texts" for the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was and is God? Forget about the fact that John 1:1 clearly says so in all non-JW Bibles. Isaiah 9:6 prophesied that Jesus would "be called Mighty God" by his followers. That's God with an upper case G even in JW Bibles. Why? Because the Hebrew demands it. Know any JWs who "call" Jesus their "God"? I don't. But Christians do. Thomas did. He called Jesus "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) Jesus said that we are to "Worship God alone." (Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8) Yet Jesus accepted "worship" - the same Greek word - numerous times. (Matt. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38) Of course, the JW Bible translates the Greek word for "worship" - the same one Jesus used when he said that we should "worship" God alone - as "obeisance" whenever it is used in reference to Jesus and as "worship" whenever it is used in reference to God. Tricky.
You know I could go on and on with this. But I doubt you really want me to.
I hope all is well with you.

Mike
aChristian

Crownboy,
You wrote: Death is not the default state of man, according to the bible, everlasting life is the default state
I disagree. But I guess I'll have to do so later.
Maybe that's just as well. For you seem quite firm in your beliefs and quite happy with them. I think since that is the case I'll have to let your comments stand. Especially since the wife says its now past my bedtime. And since I'm going to be quite busy the next few days.
GWEEDO

Achristian
Do I really have to provide "proof texts" for the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was and is God? Forget about the fact that John 1:1 clearly says so in all non-JW Bibles. Isaiah 9:6 prophesied that Jesus would "be called Mighty God" by his followers. That's God with an upper case G even in JW Bibles. Why? Because the Hebrew demands it. Know any JWs who "call" Jesus their "God"? I don't. But Christians do. Thomas did. He called Jesus "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) Jesus said that we are to "Worship God alone." (Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8) Yet Jesus accepted "worship" - the same Greek word - numerous times. (Matt. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38) Of course, the JW Bible translates the Greek word for "worship" - the same one Jesus used when he said that we should "worship" God alone - as "obeisance" whenever it is used in reference to Jesus and as "worship" whenever it is used in reference to God. Tricky.
What you proved to me is that the bible is very ambiguous, vague and contradictory.
You know I could go on and on with this. But I doubt you really want me to.
No, actually I find it fascinating still. I use to do what your doing. Going through scripture, doing all sorts of twisting of things and logic. I think I sent myself nuts doing all that stuff. I had heaps of tricks to stop me from seeing it all for what it really is...
You know, I think Christianity in it's present form is dead. I think the only way forward for Christianity is a Shelby Spong view of things. I dont see why you cant call yourself a christian and at the same time believe that the bible is full of errors, contradictions, grosse inhumanity, and that Christ was a myth. I see Christianity moving from the view that the bible is Gods inerrant word to a view that it's mans attempt to express his spiritual nature...Same goes for the Islam, Buddhism (a much more mature religion than Christianity I believe at the moment) etc...I think religion should be viewed the same way we view a piece of Art: they are all just mans attempt to express something greater within. A person with this view isn't restricted to the Bible as a source of wisdom, though the he/she may predominately wish to use the Christian symbols as an expression of the transcendental nature that I believe is in all of us. A person with such a view can dismiss all the garbage in the bible and doesn't have to do mental gymnastics to try and explain everything too. I mean, why restrict yourself to one book as a road map to life anyway...seems rather foolish. There is a wealth of wisdom out there. Why put a straight jacket on your mind.
I mean take the crucifixion. The the story doesn't make sense. The story is so full of holes it's ridiculous to believe it's real. But if you suspend disbelief, the story itself has a certain beauty about it. The story that someone so full of love for people he was willing to suffer great pain for others is a good story. It does have a certain inspiring beauty that some people may wish to use to inspire their lives. But logically it doesn't make sense and cant be for real.
God, according to you, creates people destined to sin. When they do sin he deprives them of eternal life (which is punishment however way you look at. Deprivation is punishment). But anyway...he then decides he must save them. How does he do this. By killing himself as a ransom. EH? There is no sense to that. A god that requires that an innocent man die (that innocent man being himself in your belief system) inorder to save others makes no sense...The logic behind it is absurd. There is simply no need for him to do it to save anyone.
well theres my random views anyway. Dont know if it all makes sense or not???????????????????
nighty night!
siegswife

What is evil really except something that isn't true? Whether it's something like Cain, believing that he would be happier if his brother was dead and that he could kill him without repercussion; or a person believing that a manmade 'organization' is God's channel of communication?
Evil is based in falsehood. It is darkness, without enlightenment, without truth.
Wherever the Light of God shines on something, it isn't dark anymore. It is exposed for what it is. If the Light shines in darkness, it's not darkness anymore. When the truth is revealed, the lie has no place. It can't exist anymore.
I agree with aChristian that the 'knowledge' denoted in Genesis refers to an 'intimate' relationship with evil...with lies. When you believe or tell a lie, you are promoting evil and what results.
If you know something is a lie and expose it for what it is, evil no longer has a place. In God's Light, there is no darkness, thus no 'evil'.
In answer to your question then, no, knowledge of evil doesn't condemn us. Perpetrating lies and allowing a place for evil is what condemns us.
Faithful2Jah

Gweedo: You said, "God ... creates people ... he deprives them of eternal life (which is punishment however way you look at. Deprivation is punishment)."
God also creates cows, chickens, rattle snakes and mosquitoes. Simply because he creates them does that mean he is morally required to give them all eternal life? Is he punishing them if he doesn't?
JosephAlward

Gweedo wrote,
Dont know if it all makes sense or not
It makes perfect sense to me, Gweedo. The Bible was never intended by its authors to be taken literally, and the only reason some Christians hold to inerrancy at all costs is that they know that once they admit to themselves there is even one error in the Bible, they will forever wonder whether there are errors elsewhere, and then perhaps the messages of salvation are false, and maybe there was no resurrection. Once they lose that, they lose almost everything, for losing the belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is a kind of death for them; some Christians believe it would be an literal death. No wonder they fight so hard to maintain their delusions; it's either do that, or die.
From the very beginnings of Christianity, folks seemed to understand very well that the Bible's stories were not to be taken seriously.
Origen, who is generally considered the greatest theologian and biblical scholar of the early Eastern church, was so much a true believer that, according to the historian, Eusebius, he took the command in Matthew 19:12 to mean that he should castrate himself, and he did! Nevertheless, he had still had sense enough to know that the Genesis creation story was nonsense, unlike many of the true believers in this forum. Writing around 230 CE, he said, "What man of sense will agree with the statement that the first, second, and third days, in which the evening is named and the morning, were without sun? " (Quoted in Mysteries of Adoni, p. 176)
Lamentably, we have folks today who insist on taking literally the Bible's stories, even the one about the Lord ordering infants and suckling babes to be killed ("Thus saith the LORD...slay both man and woman, infant and suckling"--1 Samuel 15:1-3). These are the Christians who do the most damage to Christianity; if there is a god, then he surely is very unhappy with those who take seriously the horrendous stories about him. These Christians, however, think that it is the unbelieving skeptic like Gweedo who disappoint God.
One of the reasons the all-believing Bible reader insists on believing everything in the Bible is expressed well by Saint Augustine:
St. Augustine (354-430 CE) was one of the founders of the Roman Catholic Church. He well understood that Christianity was like a house of cards; if the church dared to admit to even a single error in the Bible, who could say there wasn't an error on every page? The resurrection story might then be false and everyone's hopes are in vain. This is what he said:
The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books....If you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true." --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
JosephAlward

It's been argued in this forum that because man's nature is sinful, man doesn't deserve eternal life. God, if he exists and is the creator of man, certainly seems to have the right to deny eternal life to man, but by what logic would it seem reasonable that he do so?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
Faithful2Jah

>>>>>>>>>>> God, if he exists and is the creator of man, certainly seems to have the right to deny eternal life to man, but by what logic would it seem reasonable that he do so?
I think the logic would be that God would only want to give eternal life to those who had resolved in their own hearts that they wanted to live righteous lives. Then he could give those who had made such a resolution something they themselves desired, the ability to live a perfectly righteous life. Then as the Bible says "That which is corruptible will become incorruptible." 1 Cor. 15:42,52,53 Otherwise, if God gave eternal life to everyone, even to those who chose to live their lives hurting others, eternity would be a pretty unpleasant place to be.
JosephAlward

Why wouldn't God just make all men incorruptible to begin with, so he could let all of them have eternal life?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
GWEEDO

Faithful
God also creates cows, chickens, rattle snakes and mosquitoes. Simply because he creates them does that mean he is morally required to give them all eternal life? Is he punishing them if he doesn't?
But he did give Adam and eve eternal life. He permitted them to eat of a tree and live forever. He then said if you eat of this other tree you will die, you'll be deprived of the tree of life. Thats punishment Faithful. It's a very simple concept. I think you'll find 99.999999% of people on this board understand that...all except you an AC it seems.
I'll try an analogy
A father who says to his kids you can eat of the cookie jar all the cookies that are brown....but leave the whites one alone else such and such will happen. The kids eat of the white cookies. The father takes away all the cookies and sends them to their room. Thats Punishment...and no different from what God has done to Adam and Eve above.
Also
Did God not punish the talking serpent also. The serpert seduced eve into eating of the tree they were told not to...As PUNISHMENT, as a consequence of this bad act God got angery at this highly evolved talkng serpent and made it crawl on its belly for the rest of its life. Strange story..?!??!?!Obviously myth...huh
God is not obligated to do anything, he can do whatever he pleases because he has the might to enforce his will . But a god that tells us he is a God of love and yet allows people to suffer disease and all sorts pain and suffering in this world, animals included...is hardly a god of Love, hardly lacking in darkness, hardly perfect. He's a tyrrant.

Does Knowledge of Evil Condemn Us?

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