Good point Billy!
Are you really an Apostate, according to the WT ?
by Phizzy 37 Replies latest jw friends
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LouBelle
All I did was show them from their own watchtower certain things....so no, no twisted lies, no untruths.....let them call me what they want I don't care.
My mother and I were thinking of protesting outside that specific convention. I think it will be held in October - or round abouts then. Going to see if we can rally some ex Jdubs and friends to support us in this effort. (KZN ex Jdubs look out for a thread that I'll be starting in connection with this)
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Phizzy
I don't think many of us on here actually mind being called Apostates from the WT, that is what we are, and I for one am proud to "stand apart" from the WT and its lies.
But what I hope we can achieve is a dulling of the fear that is instilled in JW's of looking at anything so labelled, by introducing stuff as "Not Apostate" pehaps we can alleviate that fear.
Good luck with any Demo LouBelle ! if it makes you feel good, the effect on JW's is not that important.
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LouBelle
Phizzy - I just feel like showing them the middle finger is all - let them know I really don't give a rats' ass.
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Oubliette
YES, I AM AN APOSTATE
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BluesBrother, thanks for posting the info from the, Shepherd the Flock of God (STFOG) book.
If we cut through all the phony rhetoric we're left with the simple truth that for Jehovah's Witnesses anyone that disagrees with current WT doctrine, teachings AND practices is an apostate. Anyone that gives voice to their disagreements is likely to find themselves in a Judicial Hearing that will probably lead to their being disfellowshipped. It does not matter if what they say or think is correct and the WT is wrong, it only matters that they disagree with what is currently published "Truth."
If you are forward thinking enough to anticipate a doctrinal change before it is published and you express that idea you are an apostate. If, on the other hand, you do not accept a changed doctrine but continue to hold to a previously taught "truth," you are also an apostate.
What is true, really true, unchangeably true, does not matter.
That being said, let's examine some of the language describing "apostasy" from the STFOG book:
Apostasy: Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment.
Implicit in this definition is the premise that what JWs practice and what the WT teaches is in fact "true worship." If it is, then this would be an accurate and acceptable definition. But the problem is that what the WT teaches and what JWs practice is demonstrably NOT "true worship." Since the premise is false the conclusion is also false.
But this doesn't matter if you're a JW, because the organization is based upon the premise that they, and they alone, are the one true religion, any disagreement is an act of apostasy. It's a fait accompli .
The only way that anyone that questions or disagrees with any WT teaching or practice could prove that they are not an apostate is to prove that JWs are not practicing "true worship." But that can never happen (at least not to or with anyone in a position of authority within the religion) because they accept the premise that they do practice "true worship." According to the WT definition of "apostasy" even attempting to disprove their authority and status as the "one true religion" automatically defines the questioner as an apostate and the discussion is over before it even got started.
It's a rigged game. The house always wins.
Let's look at some more of the loaded definitions:
It includes ... Celebrating false religious holidays: (Ex. 32:4-6; Jer. 7:16-19)
Even though this additional explanation includes that comment that "Not all holidays directly involve false religion and require judicial action" the fact remains that the WT decides what is and what is not a "false religious holiday." If they say it's false, then it's false. Your opinion is neither wanted nor welcomed.
• Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses: (Acts 21 :21, fin.; 2 John 7, 9, 10)
You really have to appreciate this statement for what it is: a powerful piece of language that gives incredible discretionary authority to elders to control anyone that doubts or questions any WT teachings, doctrines or practices.
If it had merely said, "Spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth," then most people would probably find that an acceptable explanation of "apostate" acts. But they add the phrase "as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses" which gives them absolute control over the definition and interpretation of "apostasy."
The very point at issue, whether or not what is "taught by Jehovah's Witnesses" is indeed "Bible truth," is unassailable. Again, if you question the premise you are an apostate.
It might as well just say anyone "spreading teachings contrary [anything] taught by Jehovah's Witnesses" is an apostate. That's much simpler, it's easier to understand and it is in practice the reality of being one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
What is do think is curious is that they included the word "deliberately" in this part of the definition. Intent is a very difficult thing to prove. Anyone up on charge of apostasy should try to play this card and play it hard. It probably won't help, as noted above this is a rigged game and the elders play with a marked deck, but it's worth a try. What have you got to lose? If the elders are out to get you, they've more than likely already made up their mind before the Judicial Hearing even gets started.
That being said, there is a bit of wiggle room for someone accused of apostasy. It is the "Sincere Doubter" ploy:
Any with sincere doubts should be helped. Firm, loving counsel should be given. (2 Tim. 2:16-19, 23-26; Jude 22, 23)
Tell them you have "sincere doubts" and request their "help." This will mean listening to some "firm, loving counsel" without questioning, commenting or disagreeing in any way, shape or form. You absolutely must keep your big mouth shut or you will likely be disfellowshipped for apostasy.
In case you haven't figured it out by now, the elders (not all, just most) are on a power trip and imitate the narcissistic, control-freak behavior modeled by the Governing Body. They do not like to have their authority questioned. It's really all they've got going on in their pathetic little lives.
If one obstinately is speaking about or deliberately spreading false teachings, this may be or may lead to apostasy. If there is no response after a first and a second admonition, a judicial committee should be formed.
This is pretty much the same as above. Although the "this may be or may lead to apostasy" clause is curious. It implies they can't make up their minds what is or isn't apostasy. I have come to conclude that whoever writes this stuff is either one of two things:
- Unsure and indecisive when it comes to these types of matters, and/or
- Deliberately giving conflicting and confusing instructions to create a sense of uncertainty among their followers, even among the elders. This is a typical control tactic of abusers in codependent relationships. It keeps their enables linked to them by making them dependent, in this case for "more direction."
This is merely speculation on my part, but I've seen so much of this kind of language from the WT leadership that I can reach no other conclusion.
Le's see what else do they have to offer:
• Causing divisions and promoting sects
Of course, this still is based upon the premise the JWs are the "one true religion," but I don't think many would disagree with this basic idea if they just kept it at that, but they don't. They continue:
This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity of the congregation or undermining the confidence of the brothers in Jehovah's arrangement.
So again, it is all about the organization. Never mind that the constant doctrinal changes, flip-flops and illogical doctrines might be the actual cause of any disunity in the congregation or lack of confidence in "the brothers." As always, the underlying implicit and unquestionable assumption is that this IS Jehovah's organization and any comments to the contrary or wrong.
The short answer to the question in the OP is: Yes! I am an apostate. But only an apostate of the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Although I am NOT guilty of any "deliberate action disrupting the unity of the congregation" I am "spreading teachings contrary [anything] taught by Jehovah's Witnesses" by writing this post.
I absolutely disagree with the WT premise that they practice "true worship." I am absolutely convinced that the WT leaders are a legalistic group of hypocrites that make the Pharisees of the Bible look like complete amateurs.
The one comfort that I take is this: I became a Christian 30 years ago because I loved the teachings of Jesus and admired the stand he took against the religious leaders in his day. His courage and outspokenness were and continue to be inspirational.
From the perspective of the religious leaders of his day, Jesus was an apostate. He is my role model and my hero.
But we can't forget what it got him: dead.
No wonder JWs shun apostates. They'd nail us to a tree if they could get away with it.
Oubliette
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JWB
Oubliette: "Jesus was an apostate"
Well, he did teach things "contrary to Bible truth as taught by the Pharisees". Would that qualify him? And weren't the apostles accused of teaching an apostacy from Moses?
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Apostacy is "deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses." Well, that's a lie! Where in the Bible does it say that? Actually did anyone notice that it is really what is taught as truth by the Governing Body?
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Apostates, according to the WTS, "quietly bring in destructive sects". Unfortunately for them, there are hardly any people who try to get into congregations to do this. I suppose 'apostates' must be on the decline. -
Tameria2001
I was called an Apostate once by my brother-in-law. My only crime was doing research on the Watchtower, only using all their past publications. I was not sharing any of this information with anyone but my husband. The only reason why he found out was, he popped over for a "visit" one day, and I did not have time to hide the stuff.
When he called me a stupid woman and an apostate, my husband lost it and told him, "Then the Watchtower must be an Apostate with God", because I was using only their literature. I was only using the internet as a guide on where and what to look for, pages and paragraphs, and which publication to look in. When my husband told him that, all of a sudden my brother-in-law went silent, and that was the end of that. One thing a person does not do is to attack me like that, or my dear hubby will go off on them. He nearly beat the snot out of his brother that very night. The only thing stopping him was there were about 4 police officers right outside. They were there because our next door neighbor was fighting again. This all went down at 1 am, yes, that bozo would come over for visits at weird hours.
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
If a child eats a cupcake that happens to be leftover from a Birthday Party, that child is an apostate!
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Finkelstein
The Watchtower Corporation has always been a commercialized false prophet or a exploitive apostate toward the true gospel of the bible.
People leave the WTS./JWs because they find the truth about the the truth.
Talk about bad association or associating with evil ones.
Next time a group of elders come forward and counsels on your behavior, you might want to bring that up.
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Heaven
Well, then I'm definitely an Apostate. I have both copies of the blue Truth book. ;-))