by Mary 24 Replies latest jw friends
I think it would depend largely on whether or not you actively tried to debunk JW dogma to JWs. They consider any attempt to "draw away disciples for themselves" to be an act of apostacy.
If you don't do that, then they consider you to be not an approved association or Bad Association™.
apostasy is sinning against the spirit...
translation anyone working against the WTS.. would qualify as an apostate..
Well, my mom was barely "in." She was doing a minimal rote performance. I never even discussed it with close relatives b/c I knew they would stop loving me. I needed them. Nevertheless, I have said things to active Witnesses since that time. It is usually just relating my experiences. I tell them of my WT background, my family in several generations, then I politely say I read the Bible, went to college, and now I have true faith in another religion that is truly Christian. I might also say that they minimize Jesus so much Jesus does not exist for them. I don't think I will change anyone's mind.
I did have Witnesses drop by to discuss the Selma and Steve marital abuse WT article. Also, to say what I personally thought about the WT quoting a convicted Nuremberg war criminal who used his theology to butress the Nazi's claim to German legitmacy. His theology was the direct link to his condemnation at Nuremberg. I believe he hung. The man was a zealot. Of course, altho it was only about two weeks old, they had no knowledg eof Selma or Steve. The quoting of a key Nazi, essential to Hitler's rise to power, did not strike them as a strange. I was livid b/c the WT did not have to go quote him. It was a little side issue that was totally irrelevant to the article topic.
They called me an apostate. They never disputed the factual elements. Facts don't matter.. I said one can "google" today. My own reading comprehension is enough to debunk the WT. I suggested they read neutral books. When I pointed to my bookcase, they acted as though I was Satan personified and the book would kill them. After they left, I looked at my apt through their eyes. They saw a Beatles shrine. I have icons and crosses on the walls. There is also a blue hippotamus from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. He is the officail mascot drawn from the Egyptian collection. They must believe I practice ancient Egyptian demonism. Oh, I had some generic angels on display, too.
I truly suffered. No birthdays, Christmas, flag salute problems, shunning, no social skills -- the list is endless. All the KH meetings should merit some apostate nonsense. In the end, I feel bad upsetting individual Witnesses. Their fear is so palpabale and transparent. I love being a demonic witch bitch. Please, they wanted me raped b/c I wore miniskirts with tights. In my view, I was more a Witness than the Witnesses who know no history of the Society. I was banned as an infant at Yankee Stadium for being an infant. My mom was forced to sit in the most wretched part of the stadium.
Some school "friends" discovered I was a Witness. They would not play with me. Did I mention almost a total absence of toys?
All this happened during my most impressionable and powerless years. I believe this qualifies me more than a baptized person with only a few years. I can't get any respect even with my apostacy. Heretic sounds nice, too. In fact, I prefer heretic with visions of being burned at the stake.
My little brother was never baptized but because he was a 'born in' and started reading 'apostate' material and was gay, he was pretty much shunned by my mom, siblings and congregation.
Shepherd The Flock 2010 chapter 5
"57.If the unbaptized publisher does not respond to the elders' assistance, thus displaying an unrepentant attitude, the two elders should inform him that he no longer qualifies as an unbaptized publisher. Or if he informs the elders that he no longer desires to be a publisher, they will accept his decision. In either case, the elders will have the following announcement made during the Service Meeting: "[Name of person] is no longer recognized as an unbaptized publisher." Because of his unrepentant wrongdoing, it would be best for a time not to call on him if he raises his hand to comment at meetings.
58. If the elders see that such a person is a threat to the flock, they can privately warn those endangered.For example, despite the announcement, the wrongdoer might attempt to socialize with youths in the congregation. In that situation, the elders would speak privately to the parents of the endangered ones and maybe to those youths also."
It does not say that he has to be shunned, but I know that a lot of dubs will take it that way, especially if he joins (horrors!) Babylon the Great!
OOPS, it was me who posted above, not hubby. Didn't know he had signed me out. It was my little brother I was talking about.
Two years ago, I got together with a man who had been my best friend. We had not seen each other in six years prior to this and I was hoping for a joyful reunion. What I initially got, however, were accusations of apostasy from his mother whom I also counted as a close friend. The reason? I told both of them that I was no longer seeking reinstatement because I had become convinced that the WTS was not “God’s organization.”
Their initial reaction was that of anger, but as we talked that gave way to the “palpable fear” BOTR has noted. It tore at my heart to see two people whom I deeply loved refuse to even consider the points I raised because of that. What made the situation even stranger from my perspective was the fact that my friend was disfellowshipped himself. However, he wanted to be reinstated and I suppose my stance was one he could not embrace.
The fear he suffered was especially apparent when I challenged him to find the number 2520 anywhere in the Bible to support the WTS belief of the length of the Gentile Times. The other mind-shaking dare I posed was to show where the judicial committee arrangement was spelled out or even outlined in the New Testament. Naturally, he was unable to pass either test.
We have not spoken to each other since then despite efforts on my part to keep in touch. Ah well! I have only faint hope that my words will help him break free but I can take some satisfaction in the fact that I tried my best to help him.
Quendi
Quendi: The other mind-shaking dare I posed was to show where the judicial committee arrangement was spelled out or even outlined in the New Testament.
It's always sad when people surrender their mind and personal integrity to another, or in this case to the WTBTS. I'm glad you tried to reason with them. Discussing doctrine, however, almost never persuades someone to leave a cult.
They are more likely to leave or mistreatment or disillusionment; then they'll be ready to look at doctrinal errors and flaws.
That being said, I believe that I can positively answer my dear friend Quendi's challenge above!
I am convinced that the modern judicial hearing procedures of Jehovah's Witnesses are based on a Bible account.
It's a fairly familiar account. You'll recognize it immediately:
An individual is required to appear before numerous judges against his will. He is not allowed any representation or even anyone to accompany him simply for moral support. He is not told the charges prior to the hearing, nor is he informed what the evidence is against him or who the witnesses will be. He is outnumbered by both his accusers and the judges. No outside, independent observers are allowed to insure that his civil rights are not violated nor are there any formal, public records kept of the judicial proceedings. He stands alone.
Do you recognize this account? Does it sound familiar? As a model for modern day Judicial Hearings of Jehovah's Witnesses, who does the individual represent? Who do the judges represent? Do you think the results of that Biblical judicial proceeding were just or not? Why or why not?
Which side would you have wanted to be on in the Biblical account? Which side, if any, do you find yourself on today?
There are a few articles addressed to older children living at home who think avoiding baptism gives them a license to pursue "wrongdoing." "I can't be df'd" but they say that it does not get you out of responsibility because you know what the requirements are and walk away. I'll see if I can find them.
Yes, Oubliette, Jesus’ trial before the Sanhedrin is the one example of a judicial committee being convened in the New Testament and we all know the outcome. I’ll remember that example if this topic ever comes up for discussion with Witnesses again. Thanks, my friend. I’ll enjoy seeing the facial expressions when I draw the comparison.
Quendi
