Valedictorian Rips Up Preapproved Speech, Recites Prayer Instead

by Sam Whiskey 469 Replies latest jw friends

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  Simon

  Do you think it an unalienable right to be able to honestly share whatever belief system you abide by so long as doing so does not harm or otherwise threaten anyone else?

  No, I don't think it's an absolute right at all times - it has a time and place. There need to be constraints precisely to prevent people's liberties being trampled on.

  If I want to hear your beliefs I can go to your church. If I don't want to hear them I should be allowed to chose not to. I should be entitled to an event and an education free from religious superstition and claiming that all religious superstitions can be given equal billing would severely impact the time left to actually spend on education.

  The separation and limits on religious outbursts and demonstrations is therefore practical and fair and doesn't limit anyone's rights as you falsely claim.

  Also, you are forgetting that the Christian message does threaten and therefore harms others.
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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “I notice you still haven't answered how you reconcile what they say before and after - which statement is a pack of lies? Any normal personl with half a brain can see it's the latter once they have some publicity but the former, to their supporters is what they really believe.”

  Simon,

  I’m sorry. I don’t follow precisely what you’re getting at with that statement.

  I don’t see anything in need of reconciling between what Costner said in his graduation speech and what he said in his later interview. What do you see in need of reconciliation?

  During his graduation speech he quoted an ancient biblical text and stated agreement with it. How does this conflict with the idea that students with non-Christian belief systems should have the same liberty to share their agreement with some ancient text held holy by them?

  “You really think that Muslims and Atheists want nothing more than to hear Christians recite their mantra…?”

  I think Muslims and Atheists want the same freedoms Christians want. I think they should be treated equally and have equal freedoms.

  “How ancient does it have to be? Will any drivel on any old rag do it does it have to match a certain belief system?”

  You argue over the point, Simon. The point is not how ancient is the text but, rather, that the sharing is innocuous, meaning it represents no harm or threat to attendees.

  “Wow! and you accuse us of pre-supposition?”

  AndDontCallMeShirley,

  Orthodox Muslims hold Jesus as a prophet of God who worked miracles and spoke God’s word. Though they hold the biblical gospel accounts as literary works rather than an inspired record, Muslims take no umbrage at the idea of agreeing with what is commonly known as the lord’s prayer. It’s not offensive to them.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  AndDontCallMeShirley

  Do you think it an unalienable right to be able to honestly share whatever belief system you abide by so long as doing so does not harm or otherwise threaten anyone else?

  ---

  If I walk into an Orthodox Jewish Synogogue and start talking about how Jesus is the only way, I may not be 'harming' or 'threatening' anyone, but it would be the ultimate example of bad form.

  Consideration for other's feelings and respect for their beliefs would prohibit me from doing that, no matter how much within my "rights" I thought I was.

  On the other hand, Marvin, from what you've said here I believe you would see no problem with doing that. After all, you can say whatever you want to whomever you want, and as long as you've not physically damaged them, all is fair. Correct?
• 

  Simon

  I’m sorry. I don’t follow precisely what you’re getting at with that statement.

  I don’t see anything in need of reconciling between what Costner said in his graduation speech and what he said in his later interview. What do you see in need of reconciliation?

  This is what they said before the speech when talking about the rule to prevent the payers:

  "It is up to US to insure this does not go all the way through and to maintain Christianity in our schools."

  This makes the subsequent post-speech love-fest fine-words sound like a hollow sound-bite designed to make them appear noble and avoid criticism for their action which was deliberate and solely intended to promote Christianity and NOT the general freedoms that they subsequently claim to fool the idiotic and the feeble minded.

  Isn't there a contradiction?

  Sorry to burst your bubble but your freedom fighters are just trying to oppress others and force their own viewpoint.
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  AndDontCallMeShirley

  Orthodox Muslims hold Jesus as a prophet of God who worked miracles and spoke God’s word. Though they hold the biblical gospel accounts as literary works rather than an inspired record, Muslims take no umbrage at the idea of agreeing with what is commonly known as the lord’s prayer. It’s not offensive to them.

  ---

  Whatever, Marvin. So what.

  The point is you pre-supposed what that Muslim boy may, or may not, have been thinking during the prayer- pre-supposition being something you accuse us of doing quite freely.

  Nice attempt at a non-answer, bob-and-weave dodge, though. However....FAIL!

  Also, you may notice my illustration was about Orthodox Jews, NOT Orthodox Muslims. Double FAIL!
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  Simon

  That's what it boils down to AndDownCallMeShirley: It's a complete lack of respect for anyone who isn't in their own belief group.
• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  That's what it boils down to AndDownCallMeShirley: It's a complete lack of respect for anyone who isn't in their own belief group.

  Very true, Simon.

  Even at my most "in" mindset as an active JW I never felt it was within my rights to trample people , disrespect them or force them to hear my views. If they chose to listen, fine. However, I would not consider for even a moment doing what this valedictorian did- ever!

  I find it to be horribly bad form in every sense of the word.
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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “The illustration was to get you to realize that, if you argue THIS valedictorian should have free rein to say whatever religious thing he wants to, then, by extension, you have no right to "suppress" an individual who speaks hateful words.”

  AndDontCallMeShirley,

  Then your illustration did not address my point, which was in the context of what can or should be allowed at a graduation event sponsored by a high school in the United States. My refutation of your illustration was on the grounds of what I was speaking of, which presumably is what you attempted to refute. At no time have I advocated tolerance of hate speech at a high school graduation event.

  To be clear: I HAVE NOT and do not advocate that Ron Costner should have had free rein to say whatever religious thing he wanted to say during his graduation speech.

  To be clear: I HAVE advocated that Ron Costner should have had free rein to say what he did say in his graduation speech because it was honest and I see nothing threatening about it or that could cause harm.

  “No, I don't think it's an absolute right at all times - it has a time and place.”

  Simon,

  Then there’s a big difference in our view of proper social and civil boundaries.

  I think each person has an unalienable right to be able to honestly share whatever belief system they abide by so long as doing so does not harm or otherwise threaten anyone else. You don’t.

  “Also, you are forgetting that the Christian message does threaten and therefore harms others.”

  That depends on the message being deemed “Christian”.

  I don’t see anything threatening to Jews, Muslims, Atheists or anyone else by a graduate student quoting the lords prayer and stating agreement with it, and that is what was done that’s at issue.

  Speaking of boundaries, my new posting restricting is just about used up if I'm reading this correctly. That's been my paycheck for this constructive effort.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  Simon

  So Marvin ... before vs after quote comments.

  I presume you've been intentionally ignoring it and are now attempting to 'run down the clock' on posts to avoid answering it?
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  wasblind

  if left unchecked the religious would take over and oppress others and removed their liiberty.------Simon

  Yep. And while doin' so,

  the over zealous think they're doin' Gods work.