Scripturally-Speaking, Do You Think First Century Christians Were Taught To "Hate" All Apostates???

by bjc2read 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  bjc2read

  Hi all,

  Here are some searching questions about the Governing Body's PUBLIC POSITION on the prescribed treatment of all "apostates" against the organization, as taught at the most recent summer assemblies of Jehovah's Witnesses, in the year of 2013.

  In your opinion, why does not the verse (shown below) NOT APPLY to how Jehovah's Witnesses are currently taught to feel about "apostates," and their activities toward the organization? The verses in question, are from the words of Jesus who clearly said:

  "However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous." -- Matthew 5:44, 45 New World Translation.

  In other words, do you believe personally these words of Jesus, should or should not have a serious bearing on the stand of all Jehovah's Witnesses, and their viewpoint of activities of all those they consider to be "apostates"?

  Additionally, is it your considered opinion the apostle Paul wrote under inspiration the following words for our benefit concerning this topic, namely

  "For there are many, I used to mention them often but now I mention them also with weeping, who are walking as the enemies of the torture stake of the Christ," -- Philippians 3:18 New World Translation

  In the above verse, Paul "mentioned them [apostates] in weeping," meaning he "weeped" for "apostates" in sadness, certain individuals who were once former members of the christian congregation, that had later turned against it? Are we seeing that same kind of attitude in the current Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, in your opinion, toward "apostates" and their activities, as expressed at the assemblies and literature?

  Further in your opinion, do you think Paul here in this verse, is "actively" teaching "hate" against all apostates to the brothers of the first century? Also in your opinion, would you say the existence of such a verse, actually shows beyond a shadow of a doubt back in the first century, Paul as an inspired apostle ... actually "hated" all apostates, even taught and publicly advocated "hate" against all apostates ... just as the Governing Body of today openly does at the recent summer assemblies of Jehovah's Witnesses, in the year of 2013?

  In other words, can you honestly say, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is following the example set by Jesus and the apostle Paul about proper conduct toward "apostates" of our modern time?

  Hmmmmmmm...questions to ponder for all Jehovah's Witnesses, I think.

  I thank you in advance for your response.

  bjc
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  jhine

  there is a teaching (from Paul ,I think ) that talks about putting such ones (those who have turned from the truth ) out of the protection of the church , I am paraphrasing ., but the writer does say that for their own good people who have turned their backs on Christ should be removed from the congregation . This is I think where the idea of shunning comes from , so it is a difficult one to get right . There is some scriptural basis for taking some kind of action against apostates , but I think that you are absolutely right in saying that discipline must be tempered with LOVE , not hate .

  The Watchtower uses this verse , as with so many others for their own ends . Imo it can never be right for a follower of Christ to hate anyone .
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  bjc2read

  Please find below a YouTube link, to the particular "Talk" in question, given at the recent Summer 2013 Assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses entitled: Beware of Apostates!

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSEVEeUSkD0&feature=youtu.be&t=2m

  bjc
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  jgnat

  Heck, the first century Christians were the apostates!

  Any new movement goes through the same stages. It is founded by a visionary, established by the codifiers, and then protected by the enforcers!

  It was pretty fast and loose at first. Eating and praying together through the night. Sharing everything in common. New scriptures being written daily. Then a few spoil-sports move in to share in the glory. Zap, the Holy Spirit eliminates them. A few widows complain, and a soup kitchen is set up. More rules, more organization, and something has to be done with the outliers.

  Along comes Constantine, and the religion is official. Dissenters are persecuted to the full extent of the law.
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  humbled

  I love your synopsis, jgnat.

  Maeve
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  Band on the Run

  No way. I don't think so in the beginning. Later, when orthodoxy was defined. The account in Acts and the actual historical record of how Christianity spread indicates these people were not country bumpkins. There are major trade routes in Africa, Europe, and part of Asia. There was no uniformity of opinion when missionaries spread the word. Today major theological differences still exist that started when one apostle or disciple preached sometihng different from another one. Local cultural beliefs would also affect what people believed.

  Even today with orthodoxy so well-defined, I don't discriminate against other churches. Sometimes I want a change of pace. In my immediate neighborhood, I can choose all different types of Roman Catholic, and other mainstream churches. My immediate neighborhood was alway stabilized by massive concentrations of Slavic people. There is a different, obscure Eastern Rite church on every single city block. Since I was practicing law at the highest levels when I became disabled for a while, the priests suggested that since I could not work, I spend the time auditing courses at the local seminary and train to be a canonical lawyer. The bishop agreed. So I don't know the culture. I am not at the seminary considered the brightest and most challenging but the one is completely Establishment. The old boy network is incredible. I started with Systematic Theology. My expectation was that there would only be Episcoplians and the hardest core Es. Well, in the class I encounter some Jewish seminarians, Orthodox, a few Roman Catholics, Methodists, and Lutherans. They all want to learn from each other's faith to better understand their own.

  No matter how many times I read about how diverse Christianity was I am shocked. It did not last long but there was a golden age. I also read a lot of British history b/c of my law background and my obsession with Henry VIII's wives. People were tortured and burned at the stake for not standing or kneeling. Also, major civil wars within England were taking place. The majority of English people just wanted peace. Most could not read and could not access the finer points. Depending on that days local battle results, you would have to have full Catholic regalia at your home or die. A few hours later, any Catholic regalia could mean execution. People developed sophisticated hiding places to stow their religous stuff.

  Don't the apostles argue with each other when Jesus was present, perhaps a few feet away? It is amazing how many times Jesus must stop his main mission to deal with sibling rivalry or misunderstandings. I tend to believe these accounts b/c they are so human.
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  tec

  Christ warned that people would hate those who belong to HIM. HIS followers and witnesses would be put out of the synagogues and families, etc; hated and even killed. The wts does this to those who listen to Christ, over the GB.

  Not the other way around.

  Today, the wts and those who belong to 'her' 'put out' those who listen to Christ, over the GB.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  sd-7

  No. They might exclude them from worship or not receive them as a guest, but hate is something on another level, and any hatred of a person would go contrary to Jesus' teachings.

  Based on the scriptures, it seems that Jesus and Paul spent the vast majority of their time clarifying doctrine and behavior towards others, with an eye on being humble and loving.

  The Governing Body spends their time clarifying doctrine and behavior towards others, too. With an eye on giving the appearance of being humble and demanding that you love their teachings more than self, family, Jesus, and God all put together.

  Maybe I should go ahead and listen to this infamous talk in advance. Or maybe not...I'm going to attend next month, but I think I'm going to have to go outside for the duration of this kind of hate speech that is anything but Christian.

  --sd-7
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  ÁrbolesdeArabia

  What kind of Apostate are you talking about, the First Century Christians were not throwing people out of their gathering places for asking questions. The nasty trouble makers like Hymenaeus and Philetus saying "the Ressurrection had already occured " as troubling to Paul and the Holy Spirit which directed them to turn them over to Satan.

  The Greek Scriptures are heavy with exhorting the wrong doing individuals to get right with Christ. The men who are elders were to snatch the sheep from the fire and the wolves, this is something JW Elders are incompetent at doing and have no real desire to help anyone they feel is not worth their time.

  It's only those proof-texts that allow you to steam-roll over the nine out of ten scriptures that preach saving the wrong doer, sinners and not giving up on the Sheep, the JWs use the 1 percent of the scriptures to cover over the 99 percent of the passages dealing with love adn faith to be saved!
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  Vidqun

  Paul was criticized by “superfine apostles,” certainly an equivalent of a modernday apostate of JWs. No, he did not kick them out of the congregation, for he says his purpose was to “to build up and not to tear down.”

  5 For I consider that I have not in a single thing proved inferior to YOUR superfine apostles.

  6 But even if I am unskilled in speech, I certainly am not in knowledge; but in every way we manifested [it] to YOU in all things. (2Co 11:5, 6 NWT)

  11 I have become unreasonable. YOU compelled me to, for I ought to have been recommended by YOU. For I did not prove to be inferior to [YOUR] superfine apostles in a single thing, even if I am nothing. (2Co 12:11 NWT)

  10 That is why I write these things while absent, that, when I am present, I may not act with severity according to the authority that the Lord gave me, to build up and not to tear down.

  11 Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement, to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with YOU.

  (2Co 13:10-11 NWT)