Did Jesus lie or just changed his mind? (page 2)

EdenOne

So, this justifies lying to a JC? ...since they're not entitled to know the truth about someone digging "apostate sites"....

Eden

As far as I'm concerned, especially as I've started reading the transcript from the Conti trial, anything you can get away with saying to a judicial committee, go ahead and say it. Do whatever it takes to accomplish what you want to accomplish. They most certainly will. Ask for no quarter, and give none.

--sd-7

Tater-T

looks like he lied..to me.. but probably just working in mysterious ways as he so often does..

humbled

I agree with sd-7 about Jesus saying "I'm not going yet..."

"Yet" is used twice in the scripture cited and it is not one of those words that was kinda implied but not written in the Greek. There was a Greek word used that qualified what he said.

If he was being really sneaky he should have dropped the "yet".

EdenOne

humbled,

English Standard Version:

"You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.”

New American Standard Bible

"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."

New Living Translation

"You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come."

New International Version

"You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come."

Greek original: (Tischendorf)

?με?ς ?ν?βητε ε?ς τ?ν ?ορτ?ν· ?γ? ο?κ ?ναβα?νω ε?ς τ?ν ?ορτ?ν τα?την, ?τι ? ?μ?ς καιρ?ς ο?πω πεπλ?ρωται.

himeis anabete eis ten heorten ego ouk anabaino eis ten heortentauten hoti ho emos kairos oupo peplerotai

ο?κ [ouk] = No, never (strong's 3756)

ο?πω = [oupó] = Not yet (strong's 3768)

and now...?

Eden

Bobcat

The manuscript evidence is mixed. Some say "not" and some "not yet."

The context (that Jesus did later go up) and the fact that the apostle John, an ardent supporter of Jesus, is the writer, would argue that John was not trying to portray Jesus as a liar.

humbled

Eden,

Thanks for the list of translations. It looks like Tischendorf should win out for having the oldest text.

I took awhile to figure out what was up with the variety of translations.(It can be a drag to sort this stuff out because I am not a Greek scholar) There turned out that different Greek texts were used for the old KJV(from which James Strong created the Concordance) and for subsequent translations after Tischendorf found an older text.

The old KJV didn't have the same Greek reading from the Textus Receptus as the codex Siniaticus for the yet. The KJV put yet in both places It seems that the Tischendorf should get the vote on the one yet since that is the oldest NT copy we know of--so far.

So here we are--again. Did Jesus lie or did he just change his mind?

Is there a good way to know?

I lean toward cutting Jesus whatever slack he needs because all we ever have is hearsay. The trouble always with Jesus, right? But, he seems to have been fairly straight up in other ways. On the other hand, if he had changed his mind, is that wrong?

Maeve

EdenOne

To me, he changed his mind. He honestly wasn't considering going (perhaps thought it was too dangerous, there was a risk of death, and "his time hadn't come yet"), but maybe due to some divine reassurance, he decided to go, after all, taking some precautions though.

This is just an example of how the little details in the manuscripts can make a lot of difference isn't it?

And another lesson: Even Jesus CAN change his mind about some things.

Eden

RayPublisher

I don't feel Jesus "changed his mind" at all. He knew exactly what he was doing IMO. Using seemingly conflicting language and hyperbole was common for him in other places as well. For example:

• Camel and eye of needle...

• If you aren't for me you are against me vs If you aren't against me then you are for me...

• If you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood...

• Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me...

These all show that it was a certain way of expressing things that would draw out people and test their resolve and persistence. Would they listen to him? Believe him? Follow or not follow? His teaching was perfectly calculated to accomplish his goals.

Tater-T

Or you could apply occam's razor....... what is occam's razor

the bible condradicts it self is simple as seen here and OP ...or multiple assumptions that it doesn't

Did Jesus lie or just changed his mind?

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