Why Bible Faith is Impossible

by metatron 15 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  metatron

  Imagine you are locked away in solitary confinement in a prison,
  for many years. One person brings you news of the outside
  world.

  However nice this person might be, you can never really know
  anything certain about the outside world - or even what conditions
  exist with regard to the terms of your imprisonment.

  Welcome to the planet earth!

  Scientists have already found strong evidence of many planets
  orbiting distant stars (I lost count after 40 or so).
  They now think the Milky Way galaxy may hold 'billions of
  planets like earth'.

  www.guardian.co.uk./Archive/Article/0,4273,4390825,00.html

  We live in a universe that is bigger than anything we can ever
  imagine. We have no way of knowing what 'theological' conditions
  exist outside this tiny planet - Is there intelligent life
  elsewhere? Did they create us? Was the Bible written simply to
  order and pacify the human race? How 'bout the Koran? Was Jesus
  sent here as the Son of God or as a creature designed to teach
  the human race? Is there one God? A council of Gods? .....

  I can't know
  You can't know
  Nobody can know

  We can't know because we are limited to this tiny world.
  The Bible has had a powerful effect in guiding the human race
  in the general right direction. I think it was inspired by higher
  intellects.

  But I can't go much further than that - and neither can you!

  Yet, with evidence of a 'multiplicity of worlds' (Thomas Paine-
  I wasn't the first to think of this idea), it STRONGLY suggests
  that our human centered ideas about God and the universe are
  in for a MAJOR revision. ("Jehovah's UNIVERSAL sovereignity
  was called into question in the Garden of Eden" blah, blah)

  May you live in interesting times...

  metatron
• 

  Billygoat

  Metatron,

  Interesting thoughts. I'm just a bit confused though. Why do you believe that Bible Faith is impossible because we don't know what is outside of our Universe? Isn't faith the belief in something not based on proof? Help me out...

  Andi

  PS: I do agree with you. When it comes to most things in life...we don't know. That's why as a Christian I don't argue about doctrine. When it comes down to it, we don't have the answers. I just have a hope that someday I will.
• 

  metatron

  I understand.

  If you define faith as purely blind and held without the support
  of confirmed facts, then yes, it is possible.

  I hold to the radical thought that even if every miracle in the
  Bible happened, we still can't know what the real purpose is.
  For all we know Christianity, Islam, and Judaism might just
  be broad gauge 'cargo cults' (!!) inspired by some technologically
  advanced civilization that decided to intervene in the affairs
  of primitive hominids who whacked each other with clubs.
  Aztecs and South Sea islanders reacted this way to men from
  'advanced' nations.

  Until we reach the stars, it's all just speculation, altho
  few are willing to admit it.

  metatron
• 

  ThiChi

  So, you are saying that undiscovered facts of the material world is the key to enlightenment? As the Tibetan saying goes, “the further you go, the less you know.” One fact discovered opens many more questions to awnser..........
• 

  Amazing

  HI Metatron: Good post. I share many of your points.

  Andi & Metetron: The Apostle Paul defined "faith" as the 'assured' expectation of things to come, the 'evident demonstration of realities' though not yet beheld.

  I do not see "faith" as requiring a blind belief in something speculative, such as that often taken from the Bible, the Koran, or book of Mormon.

  Rather, to me, "faith" is experience based. If I witness my local fire department continuously rush to fires and put them out, that gives me "faith" that if my residence cathces fire, they will be there for me.

  Likewise, God, according to the Judeo-Christian religion was there for Hebrews with mircales and protection, as he was there with miracles for Christians. However, not having ever witnessed such things, and discovering that outside claims made in the Bible, billions of humans never witness such things, we have no real "experience" on which to base our faith. We have no "evidenct demonstration of realities" on which to have faith and confidence in the things not yet beheld.

  In the 21st Century, all we have is history of ancient peoples ... and as we move more and more into the future, the ancient past starts to look more and more like tribal superstition, though eloquently written into a palatable story of God.

  IN a few hundred years, I would not be surprised that we encounter intelligent and well evolved species from other planets who have similar tribal backgrounds in ancient superstitious religions. We can all have a good laugh.

  I do believe, though blindly, in God as a form of Christian Deist. The problem I have with today's religions is that so much speculation is placed in interpretations as revealed religion, but as Andi stated, there is no proof ... and as Metatron showed, we are similar to those living in an isolated situation with very limited information. To me, to raise speculation about God and the Bible to the level it has reached in our world, is the height of presumption about God. For, if He is a God of Truth, then he must be very concerned about all the varied speculations about him that people are willing to die for, but may or may not be true.

  I would think that a God that loves truth would do more to assure a clear understanding of himself and his relationship with us.
• 

  Undecided

  Hi All,

  I was sitting in my swing yesterday evening and thinking about my life and how much I appreciated my family, the material universe, and the many wonderful days I've had to enjoy it all. I wanted to thank whatever was responsibile for it all. I just looked up and said in my mind,"Thank you for the good things I've enjoyed(not really knowing what or who to thank) and if this current life is all there is I still thank you for it and want you to know I'm grateful for the opportunity of being here. I guess I was having a spiritual moment, whatever that is.

  Ken P.
• 

  Billygoat

  Meta,

  You bring up some good points. I've never thought about mainstream Christianity of Islam as a cult, but if you look at our human definition of it, I'll have to disagree with you. Interesting thoughts as truly we still don't know.

  Amazing,

  Some good points...I'm still chewing on some of them. But to me there is a difference between faith and trust. I have faith in something that I've not yet been proven. I have trust in someone/something that has been proven.

  I trust God to take care of me, as I've been taken care of in some pretty interesting (divine intervention?) ways in the past. I trust God to love me as that is something that cannot be disputed from the Bible's perspective.

  But I have faith that there is a heavenly promise in my future. It's not something I can tell for sure is going to happen. I don't know the details at all, but I have faith it's going to happen.

  So as a young Christian, (in other words, in my ignorance of a lot of stuff spiritually ) my trust is experienced based. My faith is not. But like I said earlier, I'm still contemplating what you shared...always want to keep an open mind and learn.

  Andi

  PS: Ken - I have those moments on a daily basis. I'm a hundred times more "spiritual" and "grateful" now than when I was a JW. I think that also makes me more pleasant to be around. Haha! I don't know if you believe in God, but I think when he heard you yesterday and he was happy for you.
• 

  AGuest

  Good day, all... and may you all have peace!

  I would like to respond, if I may. Thank you!

  The "problem" here is the statement "Bible Faith". What IS "Bible Faith"? Faith in the Bible? Faith in what the Bible SAYS? But does not the Bible itself STATE in what... or rather WHOM... we are to 'exercise' faith? Does it say "have faith in the Bible"? Does it say that anyone SAID that? Or does it have a record of my Lord saying, "Exercise faith... IN GOD... AND... in the One whom He sent forth?"

  The "problem" with exercising faith in the Bible... is that the Bible... cannot give you life... nor can it grant you entry into a time and place not discernable by our faculties of this world. All it can DO... it tell you about the experiences of OTHERS... and what they had to say about it. If, however, you want to know of things UNSEEN, that is, with the physical eyes, things that exist not beyond this planet Earth, but beyond the physical realm entirely, then you have to go through the DOOR.

  By going through that Door, you CAN receive 'evident demonstration of realities'. But, unfortunately, we tend to place WAY more emphasis on the flesh, and ITS capabilities (limited as they are), rather than on the SPIRIT, which we all possess... but do not know how to 'walk' by.

  As with the flesh being 'of no use at all', so, too, the Bible's use is limited. Quite. And it records that very fact therein at John 5:39, 40.

  So, why doesn't "GOD" just reveal Himself and stop hiding from us? Dear ones, HE does not hide from us. Rather, like Adam... it is WE that hide... from Him. How so? By not wanting to confess our errors and account to Him. Why? Several reasons:

  1. We don't feel have anything TO confess. Wrong, for ALL have fallen short...

  2. We don't feel we HAVE to confess. Wrong, for ALL will render an accounting...

  3. We don't feel we SHOULD confess. Wrong, for if we humble OURSELVES before God, HE will exalt us...

  4. We don't feel He exists. Wrong, for He does... but He can only be SEEN by those who believes He exists for it is only TO such ones that He will reveal Himself, by means of Christ.

  What stands in the way between us and God? One thing... and in many ways: our flesh. THAT... is the 'curtain' that separates us from God, dear ones. You see, Adam was made in the 'image' of God and so did not have the type of flesh that SEPARATED him from God. His flesh... was 'clean'. It was created in cleanliness and had no sin... no CORRUPTION... and thus, no DEATH... in it. That is what makes it 'clean'. However, when he disobeyed... and thus BECAME blemished... he was given a 'long garment of skin'... to COVER... his 'blemish'... his uncleanliness. Which 'skin'... he passed on to his progeny.

  We, dear ones, exist in that same skin... and it HIDES our 'errors'. How so? Truly, does anyone REALLY know what exists in you... what things you have thought... and done... but YOU? Not if you haven't told anyone, yes? But, just like God knew what Adam had done... and Cain... He knows what YOU have done... in your heart... and in deed.

  But no one of us is more 'guilty' than any other one of us; again, ALL have fallen short. NO ONE... save my Lord... is 'perfect'... as we say. But, we dear ones... can do what Adam and Cain FAILED to do... which is ACKNOWLEDGE OUR SIN AND ERROR... and STOP TRYING TO HIDE IT FROM GOD. He knows it's there, so you are insulting Him by trying to act as if it is not! You can fool mankind, perhaps, but you cannot fool Holy Spirit. So why try?

  My dear ones, my Lord did NOT turn himself away from sinners. In fact, he ate and drank with sinners, some of them of the most gravest type. But... HE ABHORRED AND REJECTED HYPOCRITES! Do you not see that when you read the accounts about him? Did he condemn the prostitute? The adulteress? The extortioner? The tax collector? The murderer? Or did he condemn those who 'bind up heavy loads' on others that 'they themselves cannot carry', those who put people BACK under a Law that they themselves could not fulfill?!

  No, my Lord accepted ALL who came to him, in contrition and humility, who were not haughty, but recognized and acknowledged what they were... and simply asked for merciful consideration... and forgiveness. And he granted it to each one... simply and solely... because he WANTED to. He LOVED them.

  Do you want to 'see' God, dear ones? Then you MUST learn... and know LOVE. For God IS love... manifested to us in His Son... who set the EXAMPLE of how WE must love, too. Without hypocrisy. Willingly. With pity and compassion. Openly. Honestly. Without... fear.

  Know love... WITHOUT hypocrisy... and you will know God and Christ. Know God and Christ... WITHOUT hypocrisy... and you will know love.

  Please note, however, that such love is NOT 'unconditional'. For if you truly love God... and Christ... then you will 'obey [His] commandments'. And they are NOT the 'ten commandments', but the commandment TO love... even your enemies... and when it is in your power to do so... to feed the hungry... to house the homeless... to look after widows and orphans... to give what you CAN... WHEN you can... out of your 'surplus'... AND... out of YOUR 'want'.

  I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  metatron

  BillyGoat, when I referred to Christianity as a cult, I was only
  referring to the idea of a cargo cult.

  For those of you who may not know what a cargo cult is, I'll try to explain:

  Around WW2, Americans and others invaded many tropical Pacific
  islands that had isolated, primitive cultures. These people
  had no idea what technology was, so they interpreted it as
  powerful magic that whitemen controlled. After the armies
  came and went, the islanders built imitation landing strips
  and grass huts with sticks atop that looked like antennas.
  They repeated the incantations they heard the whitemen use
  to make the metal birds come and bring cargo - "Roger Wilco,
  over" and so forth. Later, some of these primitive groups
  got angry and violent because the whitemen would not tell them
  the secret magic of how to bring cargo. When told about factories
  that made all this stuff, they refused to believe it and got more
  angry.

  If you think I'm making all this up, read some books on "cargo
  cults" in sociology.

  My point is to demonstrate, in the human world, what crazy things
  can happen when a highly advanced civilization encounters
  primitive people. When the Conquistadors encountered Montezuma,
  it was similar since the Spaniards had guns, armor, and horses.
  ("they're Gods! we have to give them our gold")

  So, all revealed religions could be similar to the cargo cult
  phenomena. ( like Genesis 6 where angels make whoopee with
  hot earth babes - book of Enoch sez they brought all kinds
  of advanced skills with 'em like metal working )

  metatron
• 

  Hyghlandyr

  If I want to see my god I merely look, over at my arm, down at my phallus, across to my legs, cross my eyes to my nose, close my eyes and see my brain.

  It is the fourth tenet, pillar of nothingism and I quote:

  4...Acknowledge your own deification. Recognize, that you, are a God. Know that you are to be worshipped. That your word has the power to create, to affect things..that you inspire, literally God -breath....that you are more powerful than any of the deities of times past, because they are all incarnate in you. You are the final, the last, and the first..for the new world starts with you. You are the savior of the Age of Aquarius, as Horus was of the Age of Taurus, and Moses was of the Age of Aries, and Jesus was of the Age of Piscis.

  Sin? Yes it exists, The Circle People and The Fish People abound in it. Since the moment that He whose name is unspeakable, created the Youngest Race of Men, The Adamites, it has swam through their flesh, like so much muck in a swamp. They joy in it. All of their works are as filthy rags. They sin not only daily, but often by their own admission are in a constant, unceasing state of sin. Thus they need saviours, like Horus, Moses, Jesus, And Aorthoir.

  Fortunately there are races of men far older than the Adamites. The Milesians for instance, and the Tuatha De Danaan. Rather than merely being here for six or seven thousand years these races have been here for 360,000 plus, and several million years, respectively.

  Unlike the Adamites, whose very flesh is a contaminated barrier to the deity, the flesh of a Milesian is a direct line to the divine. Our flesh is not something we use, like an old pair of underwear, and then toss away. It is, as our mind, our spirit, our psyche, and our nulania us. A part of the whole and the whole, all within and without complete. As Saint Padraig said:

  Christ with me,
  Christ before me,
  Christ behind me.
  Christ in me,
  Christ beneath me,
  Christ above me,
  Christ on my right hand,
  Christ on my left,
  Christ when I lie down,
  Christ when I sit down,
  Christ when I arise,
  Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
  Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
  Christ in every eye that sees me,
  Christ in every ear that hears me,
  I arise today
  Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity:
  Through belief in the Threeness
  Through confession of the Oneness,
  Of the Creator of Creation.

  Thus the Christos Mythos is a part of us all. The Christos is within us,
  is
  us.

  This of course for those races that are born in, live in, and die in, perfection. The Old Races of Humans have tried, vainly it seems, to bring the sludge monkeys of the race of Adamites, up out of their Quagmire. We have tried to assist Yahweh, their creator, even offering lastly Jesus to him, that he might use Jesus to perfect each them. But they have rejected him, even as they did all of the past saviours. They have refused to see that he said,

  Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect

  and have simply not noticed the glorious perfection that could be their birthright, now.

  Instead they wait, for heaven. Playing the villian in the meantime on the hopes to be forgiven. Or the New Order. Yes it is coming, you Adamites have languished long enough and demonstrated to We of The Perfect, that you simply do not wish the free gifts we have offered you. However, one final time in this final of the archaic ages, this Age of Aquarius, we are offering you a saviour. Aorthoir. You will of course no doubt reject shim. And we will simply be forced to acknowledge your proper place in the world, as slaves.