Generation clarification

by zound 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Bobcat

Zound:
In Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse, the disciples ask two questions (24:3):
1. When will these things be? [the destruction of the temple in 24:2]
and . . .
2. What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"
What I have been finding out is that some commentators see 24:4 - 35 as the answer to the first question, and 24:36 - 25:46 as the answer to the second question.
If the discourse is seen this way, it solves a number of problems, including the "this generation" problem. For example, 24:16 refers to "those in Judea" having to flee. If this part of the discourse is specifically for the 1st century Jewish Christians, then, it can be taken literally, exactly what it says. But to try to apply it at some distant future time requires reinterpreting the words in some non-literal way. (In fact, the Society has said on a number of occasions that they don't know how this part will apply in our time. And they can't know, because it isn't for our time.)
If the words about "this generation" are taken as a 1st century fulfillment, again, they can be taken literally and as having been fulfilled. The generation of Jews alive when Jesus gave the prophecy was still, generally speaking, alive, or hadn't yet "passed away" by the time Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans about 37 years later.
Revelation is interesting in that many of the things predicted in Matthew 24 have a parallel in Revelation, BUT, not everything. For example, Matthew 24 (and Luke 21) have 'wars, food shortages, and pestilences.' Revelation does also (6:3-8). But Matthew predicts numerous eathquakes as occurring. Revelation only has one big one at the very end (Rev 16:18; and one lesser one in 11:13). Trying to apply Matthew's "earthquakes" to our times has resulted in much controversy for the Society. But if Matthew's earthquakes are 1st century only, the problem is solved.
Matthew has an extensive preaching (24:14) and a 1st century fulfillment (Col 1:23). Revelation also has an extensive preaching campaign before the end (Rev 14:6, 7). So if seen as I am describing, this is a similarity or parallel. But Mt 24:14 was not describing a distant future preaching work anymore than Rev 14:6, 7 was describing a distant past preaching work. Each represents a foretold event for its own respective time of fulfillment.
And so, respecting "this generation," Matthew fortells something about it. Revelation says nothing about how long a period it plays out over. And thus, when the Society tries to make "this generation" of Matthew have a fulfillment in our time, it doesn't pan out. It only causes confusion, disappointment and constant revision. Because they are trying to apply something meant for the 1st century to our times.
The bottom line of this would be: Matthew 24:4-35 (and Mark 13 and Luke 21) do resemble Revelation in many respects, BUT, not exactly in every respect. Trying to make Matthew 24:4-35 (and Mark and Luke) refer to a distant future time causes some insurmountable problems. For example, you might see two cars on the road that look alike. There are similarities. But if you try to make them out to be the same car, you will run into differences that simply cannot be resolved.
Having said all that, if you are wanting to ask the Society something about "this generation," a good question might be: 'How was it fulfilled in the 1st century?' They are applying it to "anointed Christians" in our time who (they say) will eventually "pass away." But 1st century Christians did not "pass away." It was the disobedient Jewish system that "passed away." Christians, in contrast, kept growing after the Jewish system ended. So in the 1st century, "this generation" could only refer to the Jewish generation that rejected Jesus. So how could "this generation" in our time (supposing it were to have a modern fulfillment) refer to those who accept Jesus? This is completely opposite of how it was fulfilled in the 1st century. If it did have a modern fulfillment, you would at least expect it to parallel its 1st century fulfillment, not be completely reversed.
As others have mentioned, don't rest your hope on getting a logical answer to your question from the Society. I and others have found out that they are not into giving logical answers. They are about you accepting whatever they tell you.
Take Care
Vidqun

What helped me to put the verses in perspective is the subdivision of paragraphs in the Holman Christian Bible. The generation is the one that would witness the great tribulation. Problem solved!
Signs of the End of the Age
3 While He was sitting on the •Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” t
4 Then Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives u you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the •Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. v 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines w x and earthquakes in various places. y 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains. z
Persecutions Predicted
9 “Then they will hand you over for persecution, a and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. b 10 Then many will •take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets c will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness d will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered. e 14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world f as a testimony to all nations. g And then the end will come. h
The Great Tribulation
15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, i j spoken of by the prophet Daniel, k standing in the holy place” l (let the reader understand m), 16 “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! 17 A man on the housetop n must not come down to get things out of his house. o 18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, p the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! 22 Unless those days were limited, no one would q survive. r But those days will be limited because of the elect. s
23 “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ t or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it! u 24 False messiahs v and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, w if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note: I have told you in advance. 26 So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the •Son of Man. x 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures y will gather. z
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation a of those days:
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not shed its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the celestial powers will be shaken.
30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth b will mourn; c and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. d 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, e and they will gather His elect from the four winds, f from one end of the sky to the other.
The Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn this parable g from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize h that He i is near—at the door! j 34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.k 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, l but My words will never pass away. m
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “Now concerning that day and hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son n—except the Father only. o [1]

• A mountain east of Jerusalem across the Kidron Valley

t 24:3 Mt 21:1; 24:27, 37, 39

u 24:4 Jr 29:8; Eph 5:6; Col 2:8; 2Th 2:3

• Or the Christ; the Greek word is Christos and means the anointed one. Where the NT emphasizes Christos as a name of our Lord or has a Gentile context, “Christ” is used. Where the NT Christos has a Jewish context, the title “Messiah” is used.

v 24:5 Mt 1:17; Eph 5:2

w 24:7 Other mss add epidemics

x 24:7 Ac 11:28; Rv 6:8

y 24:7 2Ch 15:6; Is 19:2

z 24:8–20 Lk 21:12–24

a 24:9 Or tribulation, or distress

b 24:9 Mt 10:17, 22; Jn 16:2

• The Greek word skandalizo has a root meaning of snare or trap but has no real English counterpart.

c 24:11 Is 44:25; Mt 7:15; 24:24; Mk 13:22; Lk 6:26; Ac 13:6; 2Pt 2:1; 1Jn 4:1

d 24:12 Mt 13:41; 2Th 2:3

e 24:13 Or be saved

f 24:14 Or in all the inhabited earth

g 24:14 Mt 4:23; Rm 10:18; Col 1:6, 23; 1Th 1:8

h 24:14 Lk 2:1; 4:5; Ac 11:28; 17:6; Rv 3:10; 16:14

i 24:15 Or abomination of desolation, or desolating sacrilege

j 24:15 Dn 9:27

k 24:15 Dn 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; Mk 13:14; Lk 21:20

l 24:15 Ac 6:13; 21:28

m 24:15 These are, most likely, Matthew’s words to his readers.

n 24:17 Or roof

o 24:17 1Sm 9:25; Mt 10:27; Lk 5:19; 12:3; 17:31; Ac 10:9

p 24:21 Dn 12:1; Jl 2:2; Mt 24:29; Rv 7:14

q 24:22 Lit short, all flesh would not

r 24:22 Or be saved or delivered

s 24:22 Mt 22:14; 24:24, 31; Mk 13:20, 22, 27; 1Tm 5:21; 2Tm 2:10; Rv 17:14

t 24:23 Lk 17:3; 21:28

u 24:23 Mk 11:24; Jn 6:64

v 24:24 Or False christs

w 24:24 Dt 13:1–3; Mt 24:11; Ac 8:9; 2Th 2:9–11; Rv 13:13–14; 16:14; 19:20

• Most frequent title Jesus used for Himself (Dn 7:13; Mt 8:20)

x 24:27 Zch 9:14; Mt 8:20; 24:3, 37, 39; Lk 17:24

y 24:28 Or eagles

z 24:28 Jb 39:30; Lk 17:37

a 24:29 Is 13:10; 24:23; Ezk 32:7; Jl 2:10, 31; 3:15; Zph 1:15; Rv 6:12–13

b 24:30 Or all the tribes of the land

c 24:30 Lit will beat; that is, beat their breasts

d 24:30 Dn 7:13; Zch 12:12; Mt 24:3; Rv 1:7

e 24:31 Is 27:13; 1Co 15:52; 1Th 4:16; Rv 8:2; 11:15

f 24:31 Dn 7:2; Zch 2:6; Rv 7:1

g 24:32 Mt 13:3, 34–36; 15:15; 21:33, 45; 22:1

h 24:33 Or things, you know

i 24:33 Or it; that is, summer

j 24:33 Jms 5:9; Rv 3:20

k 24:34 Mt 10:23; 16:28; 23:36

l 24:35 Ps 102:26; Is 51:6; Mt 5:18; Heb 12:27; 2Pt 3:10

m 24:35 Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mk 13:31; Lk 21:33; 1Pt 1:23, 25

n 24:36 Other mss omit nor the Son

o 24:36 Zch 14:7; Mt 25:13; Mk 13:32; Ac 1:7; 1Th 5:1–2

[1] The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. 2009 (Mt 24:3–36). Nashville: Holman Bible Publishers.
Bobcat

Vidqun:
Interesting viewpoint. If I understand correctly, "these things" that occur before 'this generation passes away' would be specifically referring to from 24:15 on (using Matthew's account).
Take Care
prologos

zound thank you for the wt quotation.
pay attention to the sWiTch in their text: "notice about the WORD generation" and then fading to "THIS generation" a different, the REAL thing.
Vidqun

Bobcat, this is where I got it from. It makes sense.
The term generation is understood to mean just what it normally means, namely, 30 to 100 years, or a generation, a life span. But the generation referred to in the expression “this generation” is not the generation to whom Christ is speaking, but the generation to whom the signs will become evident. In effect He is saying that the generation which sees the specific signs, that is, the great tribulation, will also see the fulfillment of the second coming of Christ. On the basis of other Scriptures, teaching that this period is only three and one-half years, this prophecy becomes a very plausible explanation. 1
[1] . Vol. 129: Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 129. 1972 (513) (24). Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary.
zound

Thanks for the indepth replies. What you mentioned Bobcat about the generation in the past being those who rejected Jesus and the generation the GB claims it represents being those save by Jesus is an interesting point.
Ultimately I don't see any explaination as to how the word can mean "overlapping generation". Or how they came to that exact time period.
Bobcat

Zound:
As I pointed out, they are trying to fit a square peg into round hole. Once it becomes obvious that it doesn't fit, they are obliged to turn it a different direction to try to make it fit. And yet it never does. Because they are trying to make something fit to where it doesn't belong.
The question of whether the Sodomites will be resurrected is similar to this in that they keep revising it over the years. The multiple revisions themselves are an indication that they are missing something basic in the question itself.
Imagine a mechanic who keeps fiddling with an adjustment on your car's carburetor, and yet the problem is never fixed, becase it is a sensor somewhere else. In a sense, it is a failure to see outside the box. A common problem with institutional thinking.
In some ways this site is a meeting place for lateral thinkers. They are always a problem for the corporate mindset.
Take Care
BU2B

Can anyone show any other example of anyone else using the word generation to mean two overlapping lives?? How can they say that it usually means that? It usually means about a 30 year period.
Room 215

Wasn't the point of having the Israelites wander in the deserts for 40 years precisely because God wanted the "faithless generation" that refused to follow Joshua and Caleb into the promised land "to pass away?"
Bobcat

Vidqun:
I found your point in the NICNT-Matthew commentary (R. T. France, p. 929). He links "all these things" (in 24:33) to the things beginning in Matthew 24:15. Commenting on verse 33, he says:
. . . In the same way the occurrence of the preliminary events (the "devastating pollution" and the Roman advance and seige) will inform Jesus' disciples clearly that the process which will end in the temple's destruction is under way and the end is "near, on the threshold"; note the verbal echo of v. 15 in the phrase "when you see" [in verse 33].
The "verbal echo," as he says, makes the point pretty clear. Although France maintains that up to verse 35 is concerning what happens to the 1st century Jews, and that the answer to the question about his parousia begins at verse 36.
Take Care

Generation clarification

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