The Apostle Paul VS. Jesus Christ---Were They On The Same Page?

by minimus 56 Replies latest jw friends

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  EdenOne

  No, Cofty. Jesus realized soon enough that Judaism was beyond any reform. He tried to call the religious leaders to reform, yes, but they had a different agenda. He wept over Jerusalem and foretold that the house of the Jews would be deserted [by God]. There was no reform. Something new (albeit with much in common with the religion of the hebrews) had to be started over.

  Paul was a progressist. He wanted to move forward with a clear separation from judaism ways much faster than the other twelve apostles were even ready to consider. They were on the same page, only at different speeds. The tension wasn't between Paul and Jesus; rather it was between Paul and the most conservative apostles, such as James, John and Peter.

  Eden
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  cofty

  You read the bible through the filter of modern western christian theology and totally ignore the context.
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  EdenOne

  And by the way, my comment isn't "strange". it's merely a personal perplexity. Jesus' teachings are in many aspects vague. There are many topics that they don't cover. It were the apostles that filled the blanks, often with theology drawn from the Old Covenant. i wonder if that was intentional on Jesus' part to a) not leave any written records penned by himself and b) not leave extensive comments about every little thing ; perhaps he intended to plant a seed and watch it grow in many directions. It's merely a personal question I ask myself sometimes, Cofty.

  Eden
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  minimus

  Good conversation here
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  EdenOne

  You read the bible through the filter of modern western christian theology and totally ignore the context.

  And you embraced a skewed view of the Scriptures that negates its internal hermeneutics, as well as choosing to ignore the context when the context doesn't suit your argument.

  Eden
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  TotallyADD

  Was not Paul raised in the religious part of the jewish system. He knew all the laws and how to work them to prove his point. Like you cofty I use to think Jesus was all about love and that love should rule what each person should do. But Paul came in and started writing rules on how to govern that love. Soon there was many books of do's and don'ts were Jesus taught love should rule all we do. I don't think Jesus and Paul were on the same page. Paul is like todays GB who just loves to write rules and say it is from Jesus Christ I mean Jehovah. GB does not recognise Jesus any more. LOL Totally ADD
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  cofty

  And you embraced a skewed view of the Scriptures that negates its internal hermeneutics, as well as choosing to ignore the context when the context doesn't suit your argument - Eden

  Using terms like "internal hermeneutics" doesn't earn you any points unless you can defend your "Jesus was a christian" assumption.
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  EdenOne

  Jesus wasn't a christian. He was THE Christ. What you propose is like saying that Darwin was a Darwinist or Einstein was an Einsteinist or Dawkins is a Dawkinist. Makes sense to you?

  By definition, a Christian is a disciple of Christ. How could Jesus, being the Christ himself, be a disciple of himself? ...What kind of question is that.

  Eden
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  designs

  Are Jesus and Paul at odds, yes, Jesus and the OT are at odds as are the NT stories at odds with the OT.

  The accounts in the Gospels reek of anti-semitism culminating in Pontius Pilate giving the Jews judicial powers and sealing them as 'the Christ killers'. Paul sought to divorce his new Christianity from any Jewishness- German theological philosopher, Adolf Von Harnack wrote: "Truly, such an injustice as that done by the Gentile Church to Judaism is almost unprecedented in the annals of history. The Gentile church stripped it of everything; she took away its sacred Book; herself a transformed Judaism, she cut all connection with the parent religion. The daughter first robbed her mother, then repudiated her'.
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  EdenOne

  designs,

  Paul never negated the jewish origins of Christianity. He quoted extensively the Prophets and the Law in support of his theology, and much of the moral commandments he enforced in his letters draw directly from the Law Covenant, where there were no direct commandments to be found in the words of Jesus. Think, for example, about his comments on the place of women within the congregation, as an example of that.

  What Paul DID fiercely fight was to purge Christianity from the ritualistic formalities of the judaism, for he considered them a threat to the Christian liberty.

  Frankly, the comment of A. Harnack above is tabloid quality Bible commentary.

  Also,

  The accounts in the Gospels reek of anti-semitism culminating in Pontius Pilate giving the Jews judicial powers and sealing them as 'the Christ killers'.

  This argument doesn't make sense. If I quote from a history book the account of Jews being exterminated in Auschwitz by german Nazis, does that turn my paper into an "anti-nazi" or "anti-germanic" propaganda?

  Eden